But, why hasn’t it happened yet? Is further technology still needed to lower the cost of artificial diamonds? Also, dilution of the diamond market from artificial diamonds needs to overcome the growth of the general market for diamonds. For instance, if artificial diamonds capture 10% of the market, but diamond buyers increase by 10% (due to growing Chinese middle class, or whatever), what is the change of price in natural diamonds?
Also, I think you’re failing to appreciate the “brand image” associated with natural diamonds. A woman can impress her friends with a manufactured diamond. However, once she admits that it is manufactured, all admiration will disappear. She will also know in her heart that it’s manufactured, which negates most of the satisfaction from owning the diamond in the first place. I am not saying this is rational behavior, but it is real behavior.
Hmm yeah, well, there’s an easy fix. A) Noone will ever ask if it’s man made. B) They can get over that “feeling of regret” by not having debt, having a fantastic honey moon, or having a new car.
But no, Ohai, I completely disagree with your argument. When a girl with fake breasts walks into a party, she may deny they’re fake, but trust me, she still flaunts them. And every girl with small boobs will hate on her, but trust me, they’re all still jealous. Similarly, when the girl with a man made but real diamond has a better quality stone on a baller looking setting that is 3 karats and it looks amazing and everyone admires it and it costs half the price. All the girls who got mined 1.5 karat diamonds on mediocre settings with lower quality for twice the price and went on a crappy honey moon to the bahamas instead of tahiti are going to have to walk around the party saying “but mine’s real” to try to justify their small ring and budget honey moon. Yes, will absolute ballers who think $25-40k is no big deal still go for quality mined stones? Of course. But realistically, over time people will forget distinction or just stop caring. And eventually it won’t be worth the extra cost to mine these stones, and the real diamond trade will drastically implode.
I don’t know… I think we need to ask someone else about this. Neither of us seems likely to buy a diamond for ourselves, thus I don’t think we understand the psychological value attached to these things.
Sooner or later the DeBeers story will simply break down. People will realize that yes, we used to mine diamonds and pay outrageous sums. Salt was mined and used to pay salaries in the Roman Era. We used to dive for pearls and pay thousands on thousands for them. And I used to brag about my CD collection. But noone cares any more because it’s literally an identical product commoditized by technological advance. I know regime change is tough to cope with, but believe me, it won’t be the first time this happened in history.
For what it’s worth, I don’t think any of those examples compare to diamonds. Salt is a consumable thing. Digital media is not distinguished by source. Natural pearls are still pretty expensive.
I like the analogies, but if you think about it then a record collection is still pretty cool and records actually command high prices…not sure about mp3s:).
On the Coach bag front, it is true that there is a big pirated Coach bag industry in China. I have seen varying degrees myself in the Silk Market. But, Coach sells a bag in China for 3x the price it sells it in the US. Go figure, maybe the more something is ripped off is an indication of how much people value that thing and the more they want the real thing.
I bought a North Face rip-off in SE Asia in 2000…doesn’t appear to have hurt their brand any since then.
“Some people make shoes. Some people make houses. We make money and people are willing pay us a lot to make money for them.”
^ But to compare apples-to-apples, we’re talking about someone literally sneaking into the Coach Factory, started producing them with the exact materials and the same machines as the genuine ones, and left and sold them on the street as Authethic Coach.
So, maybe there’s a minor psychological discount bec it’s not “sold in a Coach store”, but it’s identical in every way. No one you show your Coach bag to will be able to tell if it was bought from a Coach store. Now imagine someone starting to mass produce them like this.
Hope. It is the quintessential human delusion, simultaneously the source of your greatest strength, and greatest weakness.
For what it’s worth, I don’t think any of those examples compare to diamonds. Salt is a consumable thing. Digital media is not distinguished by source. Natural pearls are still pretty expensive.
If you had any idea what pearls used to be valued at.. your eyeballs would pop out. I kid you not. No seriously, look it up.
Today, about 99% of all pearls produced are all cultured. After years of development, cultured pearls today are far more beautiful in size, shape, color than any natural pearl.
Pearls take several years to form. Labs can create a flawless diamond in a few days.
You know what. Screw finance. Anyone want to go in on a syn diamond factory with me? I’ll open a store somewhere on 47th, import some mined diamonds, make some lab diamonds (which will cost me less than $100 per Carat), mix them all in a pot, and start selling them.
Hope. It is the quintessential human delusion, simultaneously the source of your greatest strength, and greatest weakness.
I had a full two-minute concentration lapse thinking about that hot chemistry teacher and how I would bang her.
To the OP, there’s an undeclared competition among chicks to see who got the nicest engagement ring, how the clueless dude proposed, how badass your wedding reception was, who went to the most exotic honeymoon, etc. Even if the chick is not a diamond shark, she does feel pressure because of the social expectations of the whole wedding thing. Just buy a decent sized diamond and sacrifice the other bullsh*t: clarity, cut, and the other stuff I fortunately can’t remember anymore. All that matters is if her friends believe it’s a nice ring. Unfortunately that’s the way it is.
I for instance ruined my proposal so bad that my wife had to change the story about that. Of course I didn’t know at the time that it is expected among girls that *every detail* about it has to be shared. Damn it …. how could I possibly have known that sh!t?
Pearls take several years to form. Labs can create a flawless diamond in a few days.
You know what. Screw finance. Anyone want to go in on a syn diamond factory with me? I’ll open a store somewhere on 47th, import some mined diamonds, make some lab diamonds (which will cost me less than $100 per Carat), mix them all in a pot, and start selling them.
well, lab diamonds are real diamonds. they were just grown in a lab, instead of in the ground.
I just wish people will realize the truth. The world has changed. The traditional notions of marriage don’t really apply to most people anymore, and the world of diamonds is fueled by fairy dust. Ambitious engineers have figured out how to produce that fairy dust, and now it’s only a matter of time.
veritas liberabit vos
Hope. It is the quintessential human delusion, simultaneously the source of your greatest strength, and greatest weakness.
well, lab diamonds are real diamonds. they were just grown in a lab, instead of in the ground.
I just wish people will realize the truth. The world has changed. The traditional notions of marriage don’t really apply to most people anymore, and the world of diamonds is fueled by fairy dust. Ambitious engineers have figured out how to produce that fairy dust, and now it’s only a matter of time.
veritas liberabit vos
I know it. but my hubby didn’t. He bought me the ring. I am not into jewelry, but he likes me to wear them.
You just have to look to pearls to see where the diamond market will go. As iteracom said, 99% of pearls sold today are cultured. So even if “natural” pearls still command a higher price, who cares when they are only 1% of the market?
Even if earth-formed diamonds are able to command a premium and maintain some decent market share (not sure why they would given what happened with pearls), fraudulent certifications will become widespread and force prices downward.
After reading this thread, I understand that guy spoils his lady. He wants to see the look on her friends face when they admire the ring ( So, he’s the one who got her that expensive ring).
For educational purposes, Apollo Diamond, one of the labs that that uses single-crystal growth, was bought out by Scio Diamond (ticker: SCIO ) a few months ago.
Scio Diamond has proven technology whereby they can control the growth of diamond in a lab environment with proprietary equipment and technology.
Just as “cultured pearls” have become an excepted commodity, cultivated diamonds have now gained acceptance to the gemstone market.
Scio Diamond has already begun negotiations with large wholesale gemstone dealers worldwide. Agreements are imminent, and are focused on taking all of the future gemstone production for multiple years. Large global distributors as well as exclusive retail branded gemstones are slated for delivery in 2012 .
Scio is about to commercialize its quality stones by delivering thousands of carats per year with its market changing technology. Gemstones will be available in a variety of colors such as pinks, yellows, blues, and blacks to name a few.
The diamonds have the identical chemical, physical and optical properties as any diamond found in the earth, and the company’s highly controlled manufacturing process enables it to produce very high-quality, high-purity, high volume, single-crystal colorless, near colorless and fancy colored diamonds.
Scio’s technology permits it to produce lab-grown diamond in size, color, and quality combinations that are rare, if at all present in nature.
—
Any colored diamond (think: pink) is nearly 8X the value of the same quality colorless diamond. The company can produce any color combinations. Can you imagine how cultured diamonds will change the entire industry?
I spoke to my father (as i mentioned: a jeweler ) and he thinks once these start going mass production, the whole aura of diamonds (which let’s admit is anything but rational) will dissipate and fizz out. Ladies may still want a shiny rock, but imagine that rock costs $3,000 when it used to be $20,000.
I should just buy this company’s stock instead of going about it on my own, which will prob take too long
Hope. It is the quintessential human delusion, simultaneously the source of your greatest strength, and greatest weakness.
SCIO only has a market cap of $83MM. Any of the big players in the diamond market could buy them with petty cash and crush the technology. The fact that none of them has done so gives me pause for concern regarding the effectiveness of their technology.
SCIO only has a market cap of $83MM. Any of the big players in the diamond market could buy them with petty cash and crush the technology.
True, but would just note that debt/equity is about 3.7 so actual buyout value is significantly higher than the market cap. Your point still holds, though.
On another note, what gemstones besides diamonds are popular for engagement rings?
“Some people make shoes. Some people make houses. We make money and people are willing pay us a lot to make money for them.”
Gemesis, this company has already started selling their diamonds direct to consumers. You can pick from diamonds ready to go, just pick the mounting you want. Their prices are significantly under market prices, and offer superior diamonds
just look at the clarity ratings.. VVS clarity stones command big premiums and nearly 40% of their stones are rated that high.
I think in the article the Gemesis stones were the ones created using the Russian machines. The thing I like about SCIO’s technology is that it’s the appollo generators which don’t leave metal traces in the diamonds, leaving them essentially undectectable vs a natural diamond. They also have the ability to produce larger quantities I believe as well as possibilities to enter the microprocessor realm at some point.
Hmm yeah, well, there’s an easy fix. A) Noone will ever ask if it’s man made. B) They can get over that “feeling of regret” by not having debt, having a fantastic honey moon, or having a new car.
But no, Ohai, I completely disagree with your argument. When a girl with fake breasts walks into a party, she may deny they’re fake, but trust me, she still flaunts them. And every girl with small boobs will hate on her, but trust me, they’re all still jealous. Similarly, when the girl with a man made but real diamond has a better quality stone on a baller looking setting that is 3 karats and it looks amazing and everyone admires it and it costs half the price. All the girls who got mined 1.5 karat diamonds on mediocre settings with lower quality for twice the price and went on a crappy honey moon to the bahamas instead of tahiti are going to have to walk around the party saying “but mine’s real” to try to justify their small ring and budget honey moon. Yes, will absolute ballers who think $25-40k is no big deal still go for quality mined stones? Of course. But realistically, over time people will forget distinction or just stop caring. And eventually it won’t be worth the extra cost to mine these stones, and the real diamond trade will drastically implode.
I used to smoke pot and go to class.
Sneak in ten minutes late with a bullsh*t excuse.
Slink down low at my desk.
Pray to god nobody asked me any questions.
I was the best teacher ever.
^ good boob analogy
Hope. It is the quintessential human delusion, simultaneously the source of your greatest strength, and greatest weakness.
I don’t know… I think we need to ask someone else about this. Neither of us seems likely to buy a diamond for ourselves, thus I don’t think we understand the psychological value attached to these things.
“I’m a CPA! I got money b***h!”
Sooner or later the DeBeers story will simply break down. People will realize that yes, we used to mine diamonds and pay outrageous sums. Salt was mined and used to pay salaries in the Roman Era. We used to dive for pearls and pay thousands on thousands for them. And I used to brag about my CD collection. But noone cares any more because it’s literally an identical product commoditized by technological advance. I know regime change is tough to cope with, but believe me, it won’t be the first time this happened in history.
I used to smoke pot and go to class.
Sneak in ten minutes late with a bullsh*t excuse.
Slink down low at my desk.
Pray to god nobody asked me any questions.
I was the best teacher ever.
I used to brag about my mp3 collection I pulled from the internet on my 56k modem.
Then cable internet and dsl were invented, and I was laughed at bec my parents were slow to get them, and my friends upgraded to downloading videos.
Hope. It is the quintessential human delusion, simultaneously the source of your greatest strength, and greatest weakness.
For what it’s worth, I don’t think any of those examples compare to diamonds. Salt is a consumable thing. Digital media is not distinguished by source. Natural pearls are still pretty expensive.
“I’m a CPA! I got money b***h!”
ohai is in denial.
Hope. It is the quintessential human delusion, simultaneously the source of your greatest strength, and greatest weakness.
Studying With
I like the analogies, but if you think about it then a record collection is still pretty cool and records actually command high prices…not sure about mp3s:).
On the Coach bag front, it is true that there is a big pirated Coach bag industry in China. I have seen varying degrees myself in the Silk Market. But, Coach sells a bag in China for 3x the price it sells it in the US. Go figure, maybe the more something is ripped off is an indication of how much people value that thing and the more they want the real thing.
I bought a North Face rip-off in SE Asia in 2000…doesn’t appear to have hurt their brand any since then.
“Some people make shoes. Some people make houses. We make money and people are willing pay us a lot to make money for them.”
^ But to compare apples-to-apples, we’re talking about someone literally sneaking into the Coach Factory, started producing them with the exact materials and the same machines as the genuine ones, and left and sold them on the street as Authethic Coach.
So, maybe there’s a minor psychological discount bec it’s not “sold in a Coach store”, but it’s identical in every way. No one you show your Coach bag to will be able to tell if it was bought from a Coach store. Now imagine someone starting to mass produce them like this.
Hope. It is the quintessential human delusion, simultaneously the source of your greatest strength, and greatest weakness.
If you had any idea what pearls used to be valued at.. your eyeballs would pop out. I kid you not. No seriously, look it up.
Today, about 99% of all pearls produced are all cultured. After years of development, cultured pearls today are far more beautiful in size, shape, color than any natural pearl.
Pearls take several years to form. Labs can create a flawless diamond in a few days.
You know what. Screw finance. Anyone want to go in on a syn diamond factory with me? I’ll open a store somewhere on 47th, import some mined diamonds, make some lab diamonds (which will cost me less than $100 per Carat), mix them all in a pot, and start selling them.
Hope. It is the quintessential human delusion, simultaneously the source of your greatest strength, and greatest weakness.
I had a full two-minute concentration lapse thinking about that hot chemistry teacher and how I would bang her.
To the OP, there’s an undeclared competition among chicks to see who got the nicest engagement ring, how the clueless dude proposed, how badass your wedding reception was, who went to the most exotic honeymoon, etc. Even if the chick is not a diamond shark, she does feel pressure because of the social expectations of the whole wedding thing. Just buy a decent sized diamond and sacrifice the other bullsh*t: clarity, cut, and the other stuff I fortunately can’t remember anymore. All that matters is if her friends believe it’s a nice ring. Unfortunately that’s the way it is.
I for instance ruined my proposal so bad that my wife had to change the story about that. Of course I didn’t know at the time that it is expected among girls that *every detail* about it has to be shared. Damn it …. how could I possibly have known that sh!t?
My exact thoughts.
I used to smoke pot and go to class.
Sneak in ten minutes late with a bullsh*t excuse.
Slink down low at my desk.
Pray to god nobody asked me any questions.
I was the best teacher ever.
Also keep in mind that synthetic diamonds can have better characteristics than the natural stone, afaik.
Cities teem with evil and decay, let’s give it a good shake and see what falls out!!
my engagement ring is real diamond, but my earrings are CZ because i loose them easily.
well, lab diamonds are real diamonds. they were just grown in a lab, instead of in the ground.
I just wish people will realize the truth. The world has changed. The traditional notions of marriage don’t really apply to most people anymore, and the world of diamonds is fueled by fairy dust. Ambitious engineers have figured out how to produce that fairy dust, and now it’s only a matter of time.
veritas liberabit vos
Hope. It is the quintessential human delusion, simultaneously the source of your greatest strength, and greatest weakness.
I know it. but my hubby didn’t. He bought me the ring. I am not into jewelry, but he likes me to wear them.
You just have to look to pearls to see where the diamond market will go. As iteracom said, 99% of pearls sold today are cultured. So even if “natural” pearls still command a higher price, who cares when they are only 1% of the market?
Even if earth-formed diamonds are able to command a premium and maintain some decent market share (not sure why they would given what happened with pearls), fraudulent certifications will become widespread and force prices downward.
You can fondle the cube, but it will not respond.
After reading this thread, I understand that guy spoils his lady. He wants to see the look on her friends face when they admire the ring ( So, he’s the one who got her that expensive ring).
In my mind, he’s like that guy in Girls whose girlfriend would prefer a real man.
For educational purposes, Apollo Diamond, one of the labs that that uses single-crystal growth, was bought out by Scio Diamond (ticker: SCIO ) a few months ago.
The company issued a press release:
NOV 2011
http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/scio-diamond-has-the-technology-to-cultivate-an-infinite-supply-of-diamond-to-assist-in-meeting-global-demand-133872038.html
Scio Diamond has proven technology whereby they can control the growth of diamond in a lab environment with proprietary equipment and technology.
Just as “cultured pearls” have become an excepted commodity, cultivated diamonds have now gained acceptance to the gemstone market.
Scio Diamond has already begun negotiations with large wholesale gemstone dealers worldwide. Agreements are imminent, and are focused on taking all of the future gemstone production for multiple years. Large global distributors as well as exclusive retail branded gemstones are slated for delivery in 2012 .
Scio is about to commercialize its quality stones by delivering thousands of carats per year with its market changing technology. Gemstones will be available in a variety of colors such as pinks, yellows, blues, and blacks to name a few.
The diamonds have the identical chemical, physical and optical properties as any diamond found in the earth, and the company’s highly controlled manufacturing process enables it to produce very high-quality, high-purity, high volume, single-crystal colorless, near colorless and fancy colored diamonds.
Scio’s technology permits it to produce lab-grown diamond in size, color, and quality combinations that are rare, if at all present in nature.
—
Any colored diamond (think: pink) is nearly 8X the value of the same quality colorless diamond. The company can produce any color combinations. Can you imagine how cultured diamonds will change the entire industry?
I spoke to my father (as i mentioned: a jeweler ) and he thinks once these start going mass production, the whole aura of diamonds (which let’s admit is anything but rational) will dissipate and fizz out. Ladies may still want a shiny rock, but imagine that rock costs $3,000 when it used to be $20,000.
I should just buy this company’s stock instead of going about it on my own, which will prob take too long
Hope. It is the quintessential human delusion, simultaneously the source of your greatest strength, and greatest weakness.
I’m thinking about going all in on SCIO. I don’t even need to know what they’re priced at.
I used to smoke pot and go to class.
Sneak in ten minutes late with a bullsh*t excuse.
Slink down low at my desk.
Pray to god nobody asked me any questions.
I was the best teacher ever.
SCIO only has a market cap of $83MM. Any of the big players in the diamond market could buy them with petty cash and crush the technology. The fact that none of them has done so gives me pause for concern regarding the effectiveness of their technology.
You can fondle the cube, but it will not respond.
There are multiple players in the market.. now if SCIO’s executives start getting assassinated, that’s something else..
Hope. It is the quintessential human delusion, simultaneously the source of your greatest strength, and greatest weakness.
Studying With
True, but would just note that debt/equity is about 3.7 so actual buyout value is significantly higher than the market cap. Your point still holds, though.
On another note, what gemstones besides diamonds are popular for engagement rings?
“Some people make shoes. Some people make houses. We make money and people are willing pay us a lot to make money for them.”
Fair point, but if a buyout offer were made, it may push the technology into the media and reassure shareholders to hold out.
I used to smoke pot and go to class.
Sneak in ten minutes late with a bullsh*t excuse.
Slink down low at my desk.
Pray to god nobody asked me any questions.
I was the best teacher ever.
Anyone know who any of the other major synthetic players are?
I used to smoke pot and go to class.
Sneak in ten minutes late with a bullsh*t excuse.
Slink down low at my desk.
Pray to god nobody asked me any questions.
I was the best teacher ever.
Yo lets put all of our money together and create an investment vehicle to invest in this firm. We could run our own cartel.
Cities teem with evil and decay, let’s give it a good shake and see what falls out!!
Gemesis, this company has already started selling their diamonds direct to consumers. You can pick from diamonds ready to go, just pick the mounting you want. Their prices are significantly under market prices, and offer superior diamonds
just look at the clarity ratings.. VVS clarity stones command big premiums and nearly 40% of their stones are rated that high.
http://gemesis.com/diamonds
They took it one step further and got all their stones professionally graded ( each rock comes with a certificate and laser tag)
Hope. It is the quintessential human delusion, simultaneously the source of your greatest strength, and greatest weakness.
I think in the article the Gemesis stones were the ones created using the Russian machines. The thing I like about SCIO’s technology is that it’s the appollo generators which don’t leave metal traces in the diamonds, leaving them essentially undectectable vs a natural diamond. They also have the ability to produce larger quantities I believe as well as possibilities to enter the microprocessor realm at some point.
I used to smoke pot and go to class.
Sneak in ten minutes late with a bullsh*t excuse.
Slink down low at my desk.
Pray to god nobody asked me any questions.
I was the best teacher ever.
Also, the gemesis colorless diamonds seem to be limited to a maximum of about 1.2 carats.
I used to smoke pot and go to class.
Sneak in ten minutes late with a bullsh*t excuse.
Slink down low at my desk.
Pray to god nobody asked me any questions.
I was the best teacher ever.
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