numi Wrote:
——————————————————-
> Danteshek, you still haven’t explained why finance
> majors are “plebes.” Is there something you do
> that makes you so much less “plebeian” than all
> those finance majors out there?
It’s not what I do. It’s who I am. Business is a pre-professional major. People who go to school to get a job by and large do not value liberal education (finance, accounting, plumbing, criminal justice - it’s all the same to me). People who do not value liberal education are plebes - members of a lesser social strata if you will. That is my opinion and you are entitled to disagree with it.
Danteshek Wrote:
——————————————————-
> People who go to school
> to get a job by and large do not value liberal
> education (finance, accounting, plumbing, criminal
> justice - it’s all the same to me). People who do
> not value liberal education are plebes - members
> of a lesser social strata if you will. That is my
> opinion and you are entitled to disagree with it.
^^^ I agree with the first part regarding the difference between education and vocational training. The latter almost always masquerades as the former. But the comment about lower social strata just shows that you are a prisoner of the class system and have been not enlightened by your liberal arts education. What a waste!
I was going to write a long post on the grandiose cafe communist-chic rantings of Danteshek, however, as a Pleb I am indolent and prone to fervility. As it is past noon it is time I live up to these characteristics and start drinking.
I hope you have fun, Dante, reading on past French Prime Ministers and failed inter-war diplomacy, to each his own. Just don’t belittle my degree because I have no interest in that or russian literature and did not want to spend four years of my life doing something that I would dread every waking moment. I am content watching the end result of the prementioned failed inter war diplomacy on the history channel after playing golf.
Danteshek Wrote:
——————————————————-
> numi Wrote:
> ————————————————–
> —–
> > Danteshek, you still haven’t explained why
> finance
> > majors are “plebes.” Is there something you do
> > that makes you so much less “plebeian” than all
> > those finance majors out there?
>
> It’s not what I do. It’s who I am. Business is a
> pre-professional major. People who go to school
> to get a job by and large do not value liberal
> education (finance, accounting, plumbing, criminal
> justice - it’s all the same to me). People who do
> not value liberal education are plebes - members
> of a lesser social strata if you will. That is my
> opinion and you are entitled to disagree with it.
i went to a liberal arts college as well and i would be embarrassed if i were taught to think so myopically about people of different academic or professional backgrounds
I believe that inquiry should always be at the center of higher education. The vast majority of accounting, finance, plumbing and criminal justice grads have not done any research in their fields. For the most part they learn their subjects by rote. That is not higher education and does not belong in universities at the undergraduate level.
>If you majored in finance just to make it easier to find a job, in my opinion you are a
>plebe. Of course, I am biased.
So say the people with low-paying jobs. That sweeping generality is the same as saying that history degrees are a joke since you’re not adding or don’t intend to add any value to society.
I’ve never had a liberal arts education but have studied enough military history to probably earn a BA in history. If learning history paid big $, I would’ve gotten my degree in history and gone to grad school for history. Historical research is a lot of fun!
History courses, even at top universities, are a really easy category of subjects IMHO.
The last thing I have to say Dante is that I don’t know where you get your idea of what it entails to get a BBA at some schools, but I had to do extensive research projects at the end of every semester. Some topics I covered included leasing principles and their impact on financials across different GAAP countries and if that influenced the balance sheets of companies in the same industries across national boundaries, audit failures such as Livent and the varying legal liabilities and effects on Canadian auditors and one last example was interviewing the CFO of an African copper company to present and analyze the risk factors for their operations.
As a mere Pleb I am clearly not an astute researcher as you and never learn through inquiry and must now go discuss topics with people on my level, i.e. plumbers. Please continue to enlighten us with you knowledge of Russian literature and the European aristocrats attempt at dimplomacy after the Great War…I wonder how that turned out.
> It’s not what I do. It’s who I am. Business is a
> pre-professional major. People who go to school
> to get a job by and large do not value liberal
> education (finance, accounting, plumbing, criminal
> justice - it’s all the same to me). People who do
> not value liberal education are plebes - members
> of a lesser social strata if you will. That is my
> opinion and you are entitled to disagree with it.
Certain societies do not provide much leniency for “vocational” courses whereas others do. For instance, in the UK, you can graduate from a history degree from a top tier university and accounting firms, MNCs and investment banks will still consider you for trainee positions. In contrast, Hong Kong companies require that your underlying education and previous work experience is directly related to the job you are seeking to obtain.
In HK, there are many extremely wealthy individuals who choose to study courses which not only interest them but are extremely “practical” too. It’s not restricted to the lower social strata but is pervasive across all social classes in HK.
Danteshek, you are right… “it’s not what you do… it’s who you are”… your comments really have betrayed your lack of class and no amount of russian literature or pseudo-intellect can mask that… That is my opinion and you are entitled to disagree with it.
Danteshek Wrote:
——————————————————-
> alphabound Wrote:
> ————————————————–
> —–
> > Danteshek Wrote:
> >
> ————————————————–
>
> > —–
> > > please shoot me. i boycott finance grads.
> >
> > I’m not sure I understand the stigma with
> finance
> > grads (?).
>
> I guess it depends on whether you were interested
> in finance from an intellectual perspective and as
> a research discipline. If you majored in finance
> just to make it easier to find a job, in my
> opinion you are a plebe. Of course, I am biased.
I began college as a music major (classical guitar). Somewhere along the way I realized that, although I enjoyed music, a career focused around that enjoyment was not likely to afford me the type of lifestyle I desired. I began studying finance which I considered to be more practical, and I’m better for it both professionally and personally. I still enjoy music, but it’s a side-gig. It’s funny, though. One of the main things that drove me away from that career path was the holier-than-thou, elitist attitudes that characterize so many musicians. You’d fit right in with that crowd.
alphabound, it’s cool to hear that you were a classical guitarist. what kind exactly? what was your repertoire?
not sure why Danteshek has such an elitist opinion – from what i see, it’s not like his academic achievements warrant that type of attitude, but whatever
I have to side with Dante on this one, with the exception of his elitist class comments. I think the point that Dante is trying to make is that a liberal education teaches you to think for yourself and support your arguments with reason – this is vastly different from the typical vocational degree that essentially requires you to memorize some formulas and concepts and then apply them. I think almost anyone can learn a discipline if they just spend enough time studying it (see CFA program), but I don’t think that you can teach yourself to think clearly and concisely and to communicate those thoughts to others effectively outside of an academic environment. In that regard, there is a lot of value to an individual in pursuing a liberal education. Unfortunately, society does not see it that way, so there is a tendency for BBA types to receive positive feedback from employers / society and then to denegrate any other type of education.
I would bet that Dante’s pleb comments come as an overreaction to having had his education squashed on numerous times by finance types who feel superior and more
qualified than he is (highly debatable!), and who he, in turn, feels superior to on an intellectual level. Guys, get over it. A diligent history major who applies himself can “catch up” in terms of learning finance in twelve months or less with on the job experience and two levels of the CFA. On the flip side, Dante, not everyone agrees with your view of education, but that doesn’t mean they are beneath you.
Oh, and anyone who thinks a history degree is about just memorizing dates and names obviously has no idea what they are talking about. It is so much more than that.
Disclosure: I was not a history major.
“I lost my wife to a margin call. Wives get mad when you come home and say, ‘Sweetheart, I lost the house today.’” - Dennis Gartman on trading mistakes
I’ve seen what my mates in history programs have to come up with for their dissertations, and I definitely would not want to be doing that. To me economics and math are much easier.
Danteshek’s post seems a bit out of character for him/her. I think that no one had stood up to defend the value of liberal arts education over the sense that a BBA in finance is “more practical,” and he/she made his point in a controversial tone to make it stand out.
I have a liberal arts background, and I know that there are lots of people, often with business administration, finance, accounting, and similar degrees talking about how they can’t understand the liberal arts curriculum or the idea of spending four years studying “useless” stuff like english, classics, history, or political science. So it is tempting to hit back at that sometimes, and point out that learning and critical thinking skills are valuable for its own sake, and particularly things like history, since today’s markets are happening at what might be an important set of transitions in history (decline of dollar as a fiat currency, rise of China, destabilization of global climate patterns, the return of scarcity to the developed world, shift of labor patterns around the globe, the spread of decentralized terror networks). Junctures at this point tend to have sudden tipping points with large consequences, and the ability to think critically outside of the box is something that liberal arts education tends to value more than others. At these moments, a solid understanding of history and the things that drive major change may provide more value added than simply knowing your way around a balance sheet and cash flow statement.
I don’t look down on business administration, finance, accounting, and communications types, but I do ask myself - what is it inside of someone that made them choose to do finance when they went to college (usually making a decision around age 19). If the answer is “history,” or “french,” or “mathematics,” that somehow feels like a window into what interests them and motivates them and gets them thinking. I don’t get such a good window into someone who decides they want finance or accounting.
You want a quote? Haven’t I written enough already???
numi Wrote:
——————————————————-
> alphabound, it’s cool to hear that you were a
> classical guitarist. what kind exactly? what was
> your repertoire?
>
> not sure why Danteshek has such an elitist opinion
> – from what i see, it’s not like his academic
> achievements warrant that type of attitude, but
> whatever
Saying I “was” a classical guitarist is a stretch. I have taught myself to play different instruments over the years, but I’ve never had any formal training. I thought that university would be a good place to start, but very early on I decided that was not what I wanted to do.
I think bromion had a good point in that Danteshek’s comments may be peppered with some prior negative experience with finance grads. No big deal I guess.
I will add that while I do not have anything against people who pursue vocational training, I do prefer to work and do business with people who have been trained to think for themselves. My observation has been that people who possess innate intellectual curiosity find vocational subjects uninteresting in comparison to subjects grounded in inquiry. These are the same people who are most likely to challenge the status quo and create positive change when they enter the real world. In my view these people are the elite (see Barrack Obama).
>I began college as a music major (classical guitar). Somewhere along the way I
>realized that, although I enjoyed music, a career focused around that enjoyment was
>not likely to afford me the type of lifestyle I desired. I began studying finance which I
>considered to be more practical, and I’m better for it both professionally and
>personally. I still enjoy music, but it’s a side-gig. It’s funny, though. One of the main
>things that drove me away from that career path was the holier-than-thou, elitist
>attitudes that characterize so many musicians. You’d fit right in with that crowd.
BTech in Aerospace Engineering
BA MATH
MS Management Science
PHD Business Administration.
All from top brand schools.
numi Wrote:
——————————————————-
> Danteshek, you still haven’t explained why finance
> majors are “plebes.” Is there something you do
> that makes you so much less “plebeian” than all
> those finance majors out there?
It’s not what I do. It’s who I am. Business is a pre-professional major. People who go to school to get a job by and large do not value liberal education (finance, accounting, plumbing, criminal justice - it’s all the same to me). People who do not value liberal education are plebes - members of a lesser social strata if you will. That is my opinion and you are entitled to disagree with it.
B.Eng computer engineering
BS math
school is BS
Danteshek Wrote:
——————————————————-
> People who go to school
> to get a job by and large do not value liberal
> education (finance, accounting, plumbing, criminal
> justice - it’s all the same to me). People who do
> not value liberal education are plebes - members
> of a lesser social strata if you will. That is my
> opinion and you are entitled to disagree with it.
^^^ I agree with the first part regarding the difference between education and vocational training. The latter almost always masquerades as the former. But the comment about lower social strata just shows that you are a prisoner of the class system and have been not enlightened by your liberal arts education. What a waste!
Studying With
BBA finance
BSc Civil Engineering
MBA
MSc Finance
Im working on the GED/CFA combo.
I was going to write a long post on the grandiose cafe communist-chic rantings of Danteshek, however, as a Pleb I am indolent and prone to fervility. As it is past noon it is time I live up to these characteristics and start drinking.
I hope you have fun, Dante, reading on past French Prime Ministers and failed inter-war diplomacy, to each his own. Just don’t belittle my degree because I have no interest in that or russian literature and did not want to spend four years of my life doing something that I would dread every waking moment. I am content watching the end result of the prementioned failed inter war diplomacy on the history channel after playing golf.
lol, GED/CFA combo….
BS in Finance, CPA accounting w/completed coursework marketing/ib
Investools Phd.
Danteshek Wrote:
——————————————————-
> numi Wrote:
> ————————————————–
> —–
> > Danteshek, you still haven’t explained why
> finance
> > majors are “plebes.” Is there something you do
> > that makes you so much less “plebeian” than all
> > those finance majors out there?
>
> It’s not what I do. It’s who I am. Business is a
> pre-professional major. People who go to school
> to get a job by and large do not value liberal
> education (finance, accounting, plumbing, criminal
> justice - it’s all the same to me). People who do
> not value liberal education are plebes - members
> of a lesser social strata if you will. That is my
> opinion and you are entitled to disagree with it.
i went to a liberal arts college as well and i would be embarrassed if i were taught to think so myopically about people of different academic or professional backgrounds
Career Coach -- www.linkedin.com/in/numicareerconsulting
How to Break Into Equity Research -- www.mergersandinquisitions.com/equity-research-recruiting
I believe that inquiry should always be at the center of higher education. The vast majority of accounting, finance, plumbing and criminal justice grads have not done any research in their fields. For the most part they learn their subjects by rote. That is not higher education and does not belong in universities at the undergraduate level.
Wow you guys use really big words. This is good vocab training for me.
>If you majored in finance just to make it easier to find a job, in my opinion you are a
>plebe. Of course, I am biased.
So say the people with low-paying jobs. That sweeping generality is the same as saying that history degrees are a joke since you’re not adding or don’t intend to add any value to society.
I’ve never had a liberal arts education but have studied enough military history to probably earn a BA in history. If learning history paid big $, I would’ve gotten my degree in history and gone to grad school for history. Historical research is a lot of fun!
History courses, even at top universities, are a really easy category of subjects IMHO.
For once I fully agree with Farley.
The last thing I have to say Dante is that I don’t know where you get your idea of what it entails to get a BBA at some schools, but I had to do extensive research projects at the end of every semester. Some topics I covered included leasing principles and their impact on financials across different GAAP countries and if that influenced the balance sheets of companies in the same industries across national boundaries, audit failures such as Livent and the varying legal liabilities and effects on Canadian auditors and one last example was interviewing the CFO of an African copper company to present and analyze the risk factors for their operations.
As a mere Pleb I am clearly not an astute researcher as you and never learn through inquiry and must now go discuss topics with people on my level, i.e. plumbers. Please continue to enlighten us with you knowledge of Russian literature and the European aristocrats attempt at dimplomacy after the Great War…I wonder how that turned out.
Danteshek Wrote:
——————————————————-
> It’s not what I do. It’s who I am. Business is a
> pre-professional major. People who go to school
> to get a job by and large do not value liberal
> education (finance, accounting, plumbing, criminal
> justice - it’s all the same to me). People who do
> not value liberal education are plebes - members
> of a lesser social strata if you will. That is my
> opinion and you are entitled to disagree with it.
Certain societies do not provide much leniency for “vocational” courses whereas others do. For instance, in the UK, you can graduate from a history degree from a top tier university and accounting firms, MNCs and investment banks will still consider you for trainee positions. In contrast, Hong Kong companies require that your underlying education and previous work experience is directly related to the job you are seeking to obtain.
In HK, there are many extremely wealthy individuals who choose to study courses which not only interest them but are extremely “practical” too. It’s not restricted to the lower social strata but is pervasive across all social classes in HK.
Danteshek, you are right… “it’s not what you do… it’s who you are”… your comments really have betrayed your lack of class and no amount of russian literature or pseudo-intellect can mask that… That is my opinion and you are entitled to disagree with it.
Danteshek Wrote:
——————————————————-
> alphabound Wrote:
> ————————————————–
> —–
> > Danteshek Wrote:
> >
> ————————————————–
>
> > —–
> > > please shoot me. i boycott finance grads.
> >
> > I’m not sure I understand the stigma with
> finance
> > grads (?).
>
> I guess it depends on whether you were interested
> in finance from an intellectual perspective and as
> a research discipline. If you majored in finance
> just to make it easier to find a job, in my
> opinion you are a plebe. Of course, I am biased.
I began college as a music major (classical guitar). Somewhere along the way I realized that, although I enjoyed music, a career focused around that enjoyment was not likely to afford me the type of lifestyle I desired. I began studying finance which I considered to be more practical, and I’m better for it both professionally and personally. I still enjoy music, but it’s a side-gig. It’s funny, though. One of the main things that drove me away from that career path was the holier-than-thou, elitist attitudes that characterize so many musicians. You’d fit right in with that crowd.
alphabound, it’s cool to hear that you were a classical guitarist. what kind exactly? what was your repertoire?
not sure why Danteshek has such an elitist opinion – from what i see, it’s not like his academic achievements warrant that type of attitude, but whatever
Career Coach -- www.linkedin.com/in/numicareerconsulting
How to Break Into Equity Research -- www.mergersandinquisitions.com/equity-research-recruiting
I have to side with Dante on this one, with the exception of his elitist class comments. I think the point that Dante is trying to make is that a liberal education teaches you to think for yourself and support your arguments with reason – this is vastly different from the typical vocational degree that essentially requires you to memorize some formulas and concepts and then apply them. I think almost anyone can learn a discipline if they just spend enough time studying it (see CFA program), but I don’t think that you can teach yourself to think clearly and concisely and to communicate those thoughts to others effectively outside of an academic environment. In that regard, there is a lot of value to an individual in pursuing a liberal education. Unfortunately, society does not see it that way, so there is a tendency for BBA types to receive positive feedback from employers / society and then to denegrate any other type of education.
I would bet that Dante’s pleb comments come as an overreaction to having had his education squashed on numerous times by finance types who feel superior and more
qualified than he is (highly debatable!), and who he, in turn, feels superior to on an intellectual level. Guys, get over it. A diligent history major who applies himself can “catch up” in terms of learning finance in twelve months or less with on the job experience and two levels of the CFA. On the flip side, Dante, not everyone agrees with your view of education, but that doesn’t mean they are beneath you.
Oh, and anyone who thinks a history degree is about just memorizing dates and names obviously has no idea what they are talking about. It is so much more than that.
Disclosure: I was not a history major.
“I lost my wife to a margin call. Wives get mad when you come home and say, ‘Sweetheart, I lost the house today.’” - Dennis Gartman on trading mistakes
^Indeed.
I’ve seen what my mates in history programs have to come up with for their dissertations, and I definitely would not want to be doing that. To me economics and math are much easier.
Danteshek’s post seems a bit out of character for him/her. I think that no one had stood up to defend the value of liberal arts education over the sense that a BBA in finance is “more practical,” and he/she made his point in a controversial tone to make it stand out.
I have a liberal arts background, and I know that there are lots of people, often with business administration, finance, accounting, and similar degrees talking about how they can’t understand the liberal arts curriculum or the idea of spending four years studying “useless” stuff like english, classics, history, or political science. So it is tempting to hit back at that sometimes, and point out that learning and critical thinking skills are valuable for its own sake, and particularly things like history, since today’s markets are happening at what might be an important set of transitions in history (decline of dollar as a fiat currency, rise of China, destabilization of global climate patterns, the return of scarcity to the developed world, shift of labor patterns around the globe, the spread of decentralized terror networks). Junctures at this point tend to have sudden tipping points with large consequences, and the ability to think critically outside of the box is something that liberal arts education tends to value more than others. At these moments, a solid understanding of history and the things that drive major change may provide more value added than simply knowing your way around a balance sheet and cash flow statement.
I don’t look down on business administration, finance, accounting, and communications types, but I do ask myself - what is it inside of someone that made them choose to do finance when they went to college (usually making a decision around age 19). If the answer is “history,” or “french,” or “mathematics,” that somehow feels like a window into what interests them and motivates them and gets them thinking. I don’t get such a good window into someone who decides they want finance or accounting.
You want a quote? Haven’t I written enough already???
numi Wrote:
——————————————————-
> alphabound, it’s cool to hear that you were a
> classical guitarist. what kind exactly? what was
> your repertoire?
>
> not sure why Danteshek has such an elitist opinion
> – from what i see, it’s not like his academic
> achievements warrant that type of attitude, but
> whatever
Saying I “was” a classical guitarist is a stretch. I have taught myself to play different instruments over the years, but I’ve never had any formal training. I thought that university would be a good place to start, but very early on I decided that was not what I wanted to do.
I think bromion had a good point in that Danteshek’s comments may be peppered with some prior negative experience with finance grads. No big deal I guess.
Hon. B.Sc.,
Willy
I will add that while I do not have anything against people who pursue vocational training, I do prefer to work and do business with people who have been trained to think for themselves. My observation has been that people who possess innate intellectual curiosity find vocational subjects uninteresting in comparison to subjects grounded in inquiry. These are the same people who are most likely to challenge the status quo and create positive change when they enter the real world. In my view these people are the elite (see Barrack Obama).
Disclaimer: I am a conservative.
>I began college as a music major (classical guitar). Somewhere along the way I
>realized that, although I enjoyed music, a career focused around that enjoyment was
>not likely to afford me the type of lifestyle I desired. I began studying finance which I
>considered to be more practical, and I’m better for it both professionally and
>personally. I still enjoy music, but it’s a side-gig. It’s funny, though. One of the main
>things that drove me away from that career path was the holier-than-thou, elitist
>attitudes that characterize so many musicians. You’d fit right in with that crowd.
+1. Hit the nail on the head.
BE CS
MS CS
MBA Finance
BS Finance
and Internation business/MIS
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