I m not sure what the answer to the above is but my position is pretty much as above :(
I joined a company six months ago on a 60K GBP salary with a 17K guaranteed bonus.
I was just called into an office with HR who said that I need to lose that bonus or get chopped?
I m relatively junior - 4 years out of university - and have never been through a proper downturn.
Would you guys take the bonus and be made redundant or just sit tight and wait?
sit tight and wait.
Job market is not good and many people (who have more experience) are looking for jobs.
sit tight. let go of the bonus. talk to your manager and try to find out whether they would be paying it to you later when things look better.
There are only two tragedies in life: one is not getting what one wants, and the other is getting it - Oscar Wilde
There should be something discussed where if you get chopped anyway, you should get some of that bonus back (pro-rated).
You want a quote? Haven’t I written enough already???
Hang on to your job.
Ultimately I d be getting four months of paid leave which I think would be quite useful.
I could be out of work for a year but that would give me an opportunity to get my CFA and then progress a lot quicker.
Its a tough one for me and I m lost…
Why not keep your job and pursue the CFA at the same time like the vast majority of us do?
JustPass Wrote:
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> Why not keep your job and pursue the CFA at the
> same time like the vast majority of us do?
Yes I d like to do that but given that I d be losing four months salary by foregoing my bonus I am not convinced thats the way to go.
What I am saying is if I was made redundant I would have stuff to do….:)
My company is not sponsoring the CFA program either
Stick with it. Make sure there is a ‘prorated’ bonus clause like mentioned above.
That way you have job security until they pay you out should things get worse. Plus that salary is decent.
If it’s truely a guaranteed bonus, it should be paid to you in full (not pro-rata) in case they make you redundant
In this market, I’d keep the job.
I’m sorry about your situation, but I understand your company’s approach.
One thing you can do, is try get some kind of guarantee about your job security from them.
What’s to stop them from nixing the bonus then letting you go?
The bonus is 1/3 of your salary meaning you need to work 4 months for free. If they let u go in April, u screwed yourself
I’m with these guys - if you are giving up something that they have contractually agreed to give you, give them the following speech:
“I am disappointed about losing my bonus. As it was a guaranteed bonus, I have planned some of my financial future relying on it including my contributions to my retirement account and my housing.
I enjoy working for this company and I think that once we pass these difficult times, this company will be very successful. I am very hesitant to give up the guaranteed bonus knowing that I am an employee-at-will and I could be let go at any time. I will give up my bonus if
a) The bonus is immediately due and payable if I am laid-off or terminated against my will anytime in the next year.
b) The company remembers my loyalty when good times return.
Your truly,
Joey”
I’m Da Church of the faithful, I’m Liao Fengyi, clergywoman mother should have to introduce you to me, I have seen you twice, in which time you are more impressed with everyone I guess in the back of the church at noon to eat noodle face!
Get something in there that they cant cut you without paying this, at least over some time frame into the future. I wouldnt want to lose the bonus and then get cut anyway….
Get the bonus, the paid leave and take a vacation.
Simply put, the company will persuade you give up a bonus, after what will let you go.
Try and get the conversation in writing from the HR person. Send them an email asking for clarification of your discussion and ask the questions posted above regarding future redundancy. I dont know what the legitimacy of taking the above approach is. I would have thought you might have grounds for unfair dismissal but I dont know. At the very least, get something in writing for future reference.
Joey’s approach is completely reasonable and, assuming that you can see yourself with this company in one or two years, his (b) option is not just a pipe dream. I survived a vicious downsizing in 2003 when all bonuses went to 0 for everyone and 50% of the staff was fired. The people that survived were rewarded when things turned around the following year. But definitely get any promises in writing.
Muddahudda Wrote:
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> Try and get the conversation in writing from the
> HR person. Send them an email asking for
> clarification of your discussion and ask the
> questions posted above regarding future
> redundancy. I dont know what the legitimacy of
> taking the above approach is. I would have thought
> you might have grounds for unfair dismissal but I
> dont know. At the very least, get something in
> writing for future reference.
This “unfair dismissal” concept is not really a legal concept in the US if you are an employee-at-will (almost anyone without an employment contract and most people with one). You can try an unlawful termination suit if you were terminated because of whistle-blowing (especially for safety concerns) or discrimination or a few other little legal things but absolutely not “look, you have to take lower pay or we have to let you go”.
I’m Da Church of the faithful, I’m Liao Fengyi, clergywoman mother should have to introduce you to me, I have seen you twice, in which time you are more impressed with everyone I guess in the back of the church at noon to eat noodle face!
Often when guaranteed bonuses come into play there is also a clause along the lines of “assuming you are still employed by the company on X date” in which case the bonus isn’t truly guanranteed.
Yeah, but if they fire you on X-1, you can almost surely get your “guaranteed” bonus.
I’m Da Church of the faithful, I’m Liao Fengyi, clergywoman mother should have to introduce you to me, I have seen you twice, in which time you are more impressed with everyone I guess in the back of the church at noon to eat noodle face!
Does nobody else take issue with a “bonus” being “guaranteed”? Isn’t that the meaning of bonus.. its relative to some performance measure. If it was guaranteed you should just have a higher salary.
No. Bonuses are paid partly as performance enhancers but party to match the company’s payout to its employees with its own revenues. For instance, HF incentive fees are paid (depends) annually or quarterly or whatever and matching the employment cash flow with that is just normal business.
Edit: This is both timing and amount
I’m Da Church of the faithful, I’m Liao Fengyi, clergywoman mother should have to introduce you to me, I have seen you twice, in which time you are more impressed with everyone I guess in the back of the church at noon to eat noodle face!
Thats my point.. if its to match payouts to revenues that is performance of the company.
The company can’t guarantee its success.. so why can it guarantee your payout based on its success. If it is a “bonus” it is never guaranteed
JasonU Wrote:
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> Thats my point.. if its to match payouts to
> revenues that is performance of the company.
>
> The company can’t guarantee its success.. so why
> can it guarantee your payout based on its success.
> If it is a “bonus” it is never guaranteed
Have you ever been paid a bonus?
I’ve had guarantees of X, and then been paid a bonus of X + 2000 (oh, I’m pi$$ed) and 15X (oh this is good). If you go for a mortgage, the bank cares deeply about X for example.
I’m Da Church of the faithful, I’m Liao Fengyi, clergywoman mother should have to introduce you to me, I have seen you twice, in which time you are more impressed with everyone I guess in the back of the church at noon to eat noodle face!
As Joey pointed out, one could say something like
1) We’ll pay you this much monthly for your time.
2) We’ll pay you a lump at the year end as well, because we don’t really want to pay it all out monthly. And if we axe you before, maybe we can get out of it.
3) If you do well, we’ll give you a bunch more as an incentive to perform really well for us.
When you add it all up, 2+3 come out at more or less the same time, so let’s just call that a year-end “bonus.” Which is Latin for “good.” You’ve been a good doggie! Here’s a bonus!
You want a quote? Haven’t I written enough already???
I know a lot about executive compensation and JDV is right. A guaranteed bonus is a “guaranteed bonus.” You can easily review the employment agreements filed with the SEC of tons of companies and a clause will say they will get a guaranteed bonus (usually right after what their annual salary will be).
I understand the concept of it and that it is in fact guaranteed.. I was just saying calling it a bonus (as opposed to a seasonal increase in salary) bothers me
Yeah I hear you.
On another note, give me one fat bonus (of $25M) and I’m semi-retired managing my own money.
JasonU Wrote:
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> I understand the concept of it and that it is in
> fact guaranteed.. I was just saying calling it a
> bonus (as opposed to a seasonal increase in
> salary) bothers me
There are a lot of reasons for using a “bonus” rather than simply upping a salary:
- money is out the door later (time value baby!)
- company generally doesn’t have to include bonus in calculations for defined benefit/contribution plans
- generally won’t include bonus in matching funds for a 401(k)
- leverage to keep you at the company at least to a certain point
- a lot easier to eliminate or reduce a bonus in subsequent years if needed than it is to CUT a salary by 20-30%
- I’m sure there are more
willchan11 Wrote:
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> Yeah I hear you.
>
> On another note, give me one fat bonus (of $25M)
> and I’m semi-retired managing my own money.
You need $25M for that?! Uh, you shouldn’t…
I’m Da Church of the faithful, I’m Liao Fengyi, clergywoman mother should have to introduce you to me, I have seen you twice, in which time you are more impressed with everyone I guess in the back of the church at noon to eat noodle face!
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