If you did not lable answers in AM

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goodman2011's picture

Just an assumption, if you did not label it as the ABC but you answer it clearly in order and divided ench answer paragraph by paragraph so it is easy for the grader to judge which question you are answering. Will Cfa give scores to such answer?

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builders's picture

in plain english…you’re F’d.

cityboy's picture

CFAI states that you have to label your answers. Whether they will grade it or not will depend on how lenient they are with the rules.

goodman2011's picture

Cfa also said you need to answer questions in template if provided. But if you answer in lined paper they still grade answer. Cfa said you have to answer am with pens but many people answer with pencils. Anyway I do not think I forgot to label these but I hope they provide templates for each question in the future so that people will not be confused about the format.

bucky6225's picture

It’s extremely frustrating how poor a job the CFAI did in designing the LIII morning portion. I imagine when they see the number of exams where people made mistakes labeling, answered questions on the question sheet, recreated the template etc. they will realize how much they screwed up. Unfortunately, for many candidates including myself, our chances of passing have probably taken a big hit because they made this exam about the format instead of the content.

wake2000's picture

Master P would say “It aint my fault” you dont know how to follow directions.

CFASniper's picture

wake2000 Wrote:
——————————————————-
> Master P would say “It aint my fault” you dont
> know how to follow directions.

+1

‘Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes.’

~ Henry David Thoreau

goodman2011's picture

Can we write on the back side of lined papers? It seems I wrote all answers on the front side.

JP_RL_CFA's picture

CFA does state that points will be given to clear/concise answers. I am assuming if you did not label your answer and it’s difficult for them to interpret, you will probably receive points, just not full credit.

CycleGeek's picture

JP_RL_CFA Wrote:
——————————————————-
> CFA does state that points will be given to
> clear/concise answers. I am assuming if you did
> not label your answer and it’s difficult for them
> to interpret, you will probably receive points,
> just not full credit.

One thing that’s started to worry me a lot is that I didn’t circle/box in the final answer - my responses show calculations and the bottom line is the obvious numeric answer. I did the work on the lined pages and labeled the sections, but the final answer doesn’t leap out on the page.

goodman2011's picture

If you state clearly which answer you choose on lined paper, I think they will grade it.

markCFAIL's picture

It’s too bad i am going to fail because I didn’t write the answers in the right space. I know there is a slew of you guys that love to tell me how i should have followed directions, but after taking a ton of practice tests that had no lined pages, I was conditioned to write under the question. I also write very small so this was not a problem for me on all but maybe one or two wordy answers. I thought those lined pages were for extra room, the whole checkbox thing threw me off and I thought it was to be checked if you needed the room, not if you needed to go to the damn back of the test with even more pages.

It’s easy to run your mouth about following directions if you didn’t make the same mistakes, but there is no doubt the format was confusing to more individuals than just myself. Half way into the test i came across a blank page that said “intentionally left blank” and it continued “any marks here won’t be graded”. As soon as I saw this i freaked out thinking maybe every question page had that, so I checked, and not a SINGLE ONE of them had the same warning, so I figured I was safe. Guess not.

To all you guys that want to say I deserve to fail because I made a mistake under the pressure of the exam and after a sleepless night, I think you are probably just happy that somebody who probably was better prepared than you just got yanked out of the running. Imagine how you would feel if you spent 6 months preparing, busting your ass, and had it all thrown away for something so stupid. Yah i made what some may consider a dumb mistake, but is this punishment justifiable? CFAI will pardon you if you do not use the template, which is an exam “requirement”, they will pardon you if you use pencil instead of pen, which is an exam “requirement”, but if you don’t write on the magic page that doesn’t appear in any of the “copy’s” of past exams, you fail, thanks, try again.

I don’t understand why some of you guys are such assholes with your comments. I never would wish this upon anybody, those who pass based on exam performance deserve to pass, and I would love to see everyone of you on this forum make it through (well excluding a few now). I prepared extensively on how to answer the questions, not how to decipher formatting styles.

goodman2011's picture

Cfa will not grade the answer on question page or forbidden page. I personally think it is unfair since the exam is testing your capabilities but not the format.I hope they can provide templates for every question or make exam computer based. People will not be confused then. By the way, I did not notice any forbidden page in the exam , where is their place?

goes to eleven's picture

I don’t know. Nobody knows. But I believe, contrary to many people’s beliefs, that CFAI is looking for ways to make you pass, not ways to make you fail.

Schadenfreude is never attractive. Especially toward other forum members who have worked their ass off and contributed.

I don’t think imperfection in labeling answers will be the difference between pass and fail. Let’s hope not. And I say this as one who labled clearly, but more for my own review during test than to “follow instructions.”

CFFFAAAAA's picture

Hey Mark, I really do not have an opinion on what CFAI will do with your “mistake”, but it would be great if you could share some feedback on how you did in the AM section. Maybe a good gauge for all of us to see if CFAI shows some compassion regarding these types of issues. Best of luck.

wake2000's picture

I dont wish for anyone to fail this exam and MarkCFail was one of the biggest contributors to the board leading up to the test and knew the material well enough to definitely pass this exam but the directions were explicitly given on the front page of the test as well as on the first question.

With that said, if the CFAI has some heart, I would think they would still give credit nevertheless but I would definitely followup with them, email them or call them and make it explicit that you were under the impression that you could write on those pages because you were accustomed to doing so in the prior AM papers.

bucky6225's picture

I’m in the same boat as mark. I answered my questions on the question sheet for the exact same reasons. I thought the lined paper was provided if you needed extra space. I also got used to taking the practice exams as they were presented, with no lined paper or instructions not to answer on the question sheet.

Yes, we made an error by not following instructions, but that doesn’t mean the CFAI isn’t responsible for misleading test takers. I’ve been in touch with Schweser. They told me they have heard from a number of candidates who made this same mistake, and they estimate there are hundreds of people who made this mistake. They emailed the CFAI about this, but said they received an unclear answer, and they are waiting for a more definitive response.

When so many people make the same error, it is clearly not just a case of a few candidates not following the directions. As I said before, for many candidates, whether they pass or fail will be about format not content. CFAI needs to take responsibility for this.

DoubleDip's picture

Mark, Bucky, I feel for you. This might be part of why I didn’t pass last year, but you will come back next year stronger. I have to say that I don’t think that the exam was misleading, the instructions were clear. Stress of the exam and time pressure causes people to make mistakes. Next time, my advice is to take a few minutes before diving into the questions to make sure you understand the framework and the conditions.

And, you never know. This may end up being a blessing for you some day. I know you can’t see it now. But I would be willing to bet that some day in the future, you notice a detail that others gloss over, and it will save you or even make you some money. In this field attention to detail is critical. Let me give you an example. Remember how Citi lost out on Wachovia to Wells Fargo? A critical merger agreement wasn’t signed….

“Citigroup never signed a definitive merger agreement with Wachovia, and was relying instead on language in a two-page terms sheet. In addition, Citigroup and Wachovia executives had signed an “exclusivity agreement” that says Wachovia can’t negotiate a deal with any other party. Citigroup believes Wachovia’s deal with Wells Fargo is in “clear breach” of that agreement. It’s unclear what remedy Citigroup would have to enforce its exclusivity agreement.”

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122303190029501925.html

Anyway, don’t feel too bad about this, you won’t have to put in as much time next year as you already have the base.

markCFAIL's picture

I understand the instructions were apparently clearly labeled, and it was my mistake for not reading them I suppose. Typically when they say “start” I get moving and answer questions, I have never taken an exam that required diligent attention to directions on how to answer a question.

Wake, the instructions were likely clear and perhaps i glossed over that part, however other clear instructions were to not use pencil and to use the template, however they will grade those mistakes. My argument is that if the CFAI is going to grade people who didn’t use the templates, and people who used pencil, how can they arbitrarily say that answers on the question page won’t be graded? Either be stringent with your application of the exam rules across the board, or don’t, but you can’t pick and choose which rules to bend and which not to.

As far as the merger agreement, those guys have a plethora of trained lawyers who have done several deals before and should be aware of that. I had no preparation with how the format was going to be because it was NEVER mentioned prior to the exam, and was not given to us by CFAI in any prior mocks.

Regarding the CFAI not looking for reasons to fail people, I think the precipitously declining pass rate for level III in particular is evidence to the contrary.

markCFAIL's picture

-

builders's picture

markCFAIL Wrote:
——————————————————-
> -

dems da rocks kiddo…but thanks for bringing down the curve and helping the lower the MPS for the rest of us.

and now at least you know for next year to write in the provided answer sections and/or read the instructions first.

regardless, i prob failed too so im not worried about the bad kharma from posting this.

markCFAIL's picture

CFFFAAAAA: What do you mean how I did? You mean how I think I did if they graded it, or you mean you want me to follow up to let you know what comes of their decision to grade or not (about 99% sure they won’t)?

Bucky: I have not run this up the ladder, but the customer service rep that I called the day after told me I was SOL, I asked for a supervisor and he said “they’ll tell you the same thing”. But he was kind enough to let me know he would report my comments so they could “take it into consideration for future exam formats”. Let me know what comes of your efforts and what Schweser says as well.

Here is a radical idea! Make a question, and then provide room below that question to answer it! I guess not having to flip back and forth would just make too much sense.

Builders: Sorry I don’t speak ultra-cool pop-culture, can you translate your comment to english for me? I’m still confused as to why certain guys like you are happy at the misfortunes of others. Then again I guess forum leeches who contribute minimally because they probably lack the knowledge to add anything useful should probably stick to hoping people make mistakes similar to mine to give them a better chance.

cpk123's picture

2 things.

1) whether or not to answer with Pen/Pencil is a question that has been discussed many times over with the CFAI outside of the exam settings, and has been clarified - though they prefer pen, pencil is also ok.

2) Instructions on the exam booklet - front and back which they read ALOUD in the hall - indicated that pages were provided for answering and that the answers should be labelled precisely. So these were NOT meant to be glossed over. Additionally - the part about the sections being graded by individual graders, that the question paper section could have notes marked by you (in the same small handwriting) and which would be indistinguishable from the “Real” answer - does need to be taken into account. I do feel for you Bucky and Mark - but this is my thought on the entire thing.

Parts 1 and 2 cannot be the same thing…. (as you are pointing out above).

CP

bucky6225's picture

markCFAIL Wrote:
——————————————————-
> CFFFAAAAA: What do you mean how I did? You mean
> how I think I did if they graded it, or you mean
> you want me to follow up to let you know what
> comes of their decision to grade or not (about 99%
> sure they won’t)?
>
> Bucky: I have not run this up the ladder, but the
> customer service rep that I called the day after
> told me I was SOL, I asked for a supervisor and he
> said “they’ll tell you the same thing”. But he
> was kind enough to let me know he would report my
> comments so they could “take it into consideration
> for future exam formats”. Let me know what comes
> of your efforts and what Schweser says as well.
>
> Here is a radical idea! Make a question, and then
> provide room below that question to answer it! I
> guess not having to flip back and forth would just
> make too much sense.
>
> Builders: Sorry I don’t speak ultra-cool
> pop-culture, can you translate your comment to
> english for me? I’m still confused as to why
> certain guys like you are happy at the misfortunes
> of others. Then again I guess forum leeches who
> contribute minimally because they probably lack
> the knowledge to add anything useful should
> probably stick to hoping people make mistakes
> similar to mine to give them a better chance.

Mark, I’ll let you know what I hear from Schweser.

When I contacted the CFAI, I heard back from a manager saying too bad, they wouldn’t grade my exam. If Schweser is correct, and there are hundreds of people who made this mistake, I feel it would be worth trying to escalate this at the CFAI. A group effort is likely going to be more effective. I’ll keep you updated with any more info I receive.

markCFAIL's picture

CPK

1.) Whether or not it has been clarified on this forum, the fact is the test booklet itself does not say pencil is optional, it says blue or black ink. I even had a pencil with me but the proctor told me I MUST use pen, so in order to not risk it, I did so.

2.) Whats your rebuttal to them grading your answer if you did not use the template? The test instructions clearly state you must use templates, yet they will grade them even if you don’t. They did read aloud, I misunderstood when they were describing the check boxes and thought they meant that you marked the page if you were going to use it, so I thought it was extra room. When you are nervous and sleep deprived you make silly mistakes.

I get it, I misunderstood and did not read directions clearly enough. I fkd up. Should I fail because of this regardless of how I actually performed? Put yourself in my shoes before you answer.

The ONLY valid argument I can see on their behalf aside from just being hard-nosed is the point you bring up about not knowing the “real” answer. However, if a logical person were to look at my paper and see that about 80% of questions that did not direct you to a template were answered completely on the question page (one or two were just too wordy to fit), and then left blank on the lined page, I think it would be pretty clear what my intent was. Why would somebody provide detailed “scratch” answers, and then nothing in the answer section?

CFFFAAAAA's picture

Mark,

I should have been clearer. What I meant to say is when you get your results, it would be great if you could share some feedback on how you did. If you receive some marks >70 then its obvious that they graded your work. Not looking to see if you passed or failed, just wanted to see if the graded your work that was outside of the correct areas.

markCFAIL's picture

Sure, will do CFFFAAAAA. Do they break out essay scores from multiple choice, so I can at least see how I did in the PM?

picnic's picture

Mark, that’s terrible. I would be so frustrated.

I think what makes it tricky is that pen vs. pencil, they still know what is your final answer that you wish to be graded. Template vs. lined paper, they still know what is the final answer that you wish to be graded (since both are written on gradable pages of the test).

The problem with your situation is you wrote answers such that it’s no longer clear “what is the final answer that you wish to be graded”. The CFAI would have to step into that grey area of “OK, we’re assuming since he wrote nothing or very little on the lined pages that this must be his answer over here on the question pages…” and when they get into that game, then where do they draw the line? What about the candidate who took “notes” on the question pages, containing something correct, and then went on to incorrrectly answer the question on the lined pages. Should that individual also have the subjective grading of the “notes” applied?

I do feel really terrible for you but if they don’t come through in your favour, my guess is that it is because they can’t start doing subjective grading like that and still be fair to all the other candidates.

HappyGilmore's picture

I hate to say it, but I would be shocked if they allowed what you wrote on the question pages to be graded. It states clearly that whatever you write on those pages will not be graded. Its a slippery slope - what if they graded what you wrote on the question page but not someone who worked a problem correctly on the question page but ran out of time and didnt transfer it to the lined pages? Where would the line be drawn? The only fair way to do it is to grade what is in the template or lined pages, otherwise every band 8 fail and above are going to scream bloody murder and demand a retab.

I certainly agree the format is terrible (sat for L3 this year). Lines should be given directly under the question. However I think you assuming that the tiny bit of space between each question would be enough room for more than a small percentage of candidates is a little off. I think most logical people would look at the amount of space given and realize its not nearly enough to answer the question and try to find a better place to write their answer.

Feel bad for you but I doubt it goes well.

builders's picture

markCFAIL Wrote:
——————————————————-
> Builders: Sorry I don’t speak ultra-cool
> pop-culture, can you translate your comment to
> english for me? I’m still confused as to why
> certain guys like you are happy at the misfortunes
> of others. Then again I guess forum leeches who
> contribute minimally because they probably lack
> the knowledge to add anything useful should
> probably stick to hoping people make mistakes
> similar to mine to give them a better chance.

i feel so honored to get a dedicated section in your respone.

my response: whether i pass by an inch (the scenario where your near 0 on the AM section brnigs down the MPS just enough) or by a mile (the scenario where i rocked the exam), a pass is a pass is a pass.

cityboy's picture

builders Wrote:

> my response: whether i pass by an inch (the
> scenario where your near 0 on the AM section
> brnigs down the MPS just enough) or by a mile (the
> scenario where i rocked the exam), a pass is a
> pass is a pass.

Uhm… the MPS does not depend on the performance of the candidate pool anymore. It’s determined by a committee using the “Angoff Method”.

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