Do nice guys finish last in the CFA

The motto for this forum is “study together, pass together” which, asAlexander James points out in a comment on one of myposts, might be contrary to reality. In theory, the worse others do on the exams, the better you will do and more chance you have of passing (due to the curving nature of the MPS). So he raised the question, is it self destructive to try and advise others in this forum and try to help them to do better (when this may worsen your own chances of passing).

It is an interesting question and one that I felt deserved its own post. He also extended this question to the workplace and whether you should help or hinder your coworkers.

Microsoft made this mistake in their bell curve evaluations that would always punish the lowest quartile (relative performance) regardless of their absolute performance. This has been blamed for killing off innovation by creating a culture where people are incentivised to ensure those around them do worse.

I feel trying to improve others on this forum is not a problem for several reasons:

  1. whether you pass or fail or even how well you do will have so little to do with the advice you get here and so much more to do with the dedication and commitment you show to the material i.e. you can explain individual concepts or advise people on how to tackle the exam but the proof is in the pudding - it’s all about putting in the work.

  2. In the workplace, it depends on your situation. if you are in sales or related enterprise where you eat what you kill, helping others is a very risky and probably poor strategy. But i’m in management in the FO and it pays to have allies whom you have helped in the past. Moreover, if you are seen as helpful, you are necessarily seen as useful (so long as you still show a backbone) and this helps when the next reduction in force comes around. I’ve advanced very quickly at work in several companies and I have no complaints about promotions or compensation so i think you can help colleagues in many careers while helping yourself at the same time. But, by the same token, as Napoleon said, “Don’t interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake”.

  3. Karma. As stupid as it sounds, I actually believe that “what goes around…” and “do unto others”. I was so annoyed when L3 people awaiting results basically gave the L2’s the finger during the waiting period. I didn’t want others to have the same experience. Solidarity during this experience helps. This can be a very lonely endeavour and nobody who hasn’t yet gone through it can fully understand the long slog and the elation and tragedy of passing and failing - not even our significant others. So it helpsme get through this thing to create a bond on this board - even if, at the margin, you are hurting yourself.

I would love to know what others think on the topic.

I think helping others “being the teacher” is very beneficial when it comes to MY study preparation. it’s one thing to be a student - learn the material, apply the material. but to be a teacher requires a deep understanding of the topic, much more than just memorizing a question format etc. I find that when I help others and make posts here it further improves my understanding of the topic areas and allows me to be a better teacher.

so I win and the person asking the question wins - and maybe others reading the thread. with a deeper understanding of the topic area I may get that answer quicker or the trick CFAI throws into it.

I agree with your 1-3 points. in particular to point 3. I wouldnt not help someone because it impairs my ability to pass the exam. if I was concerned about that I probably wouldn’t be in a position to pass the exam anyway - as you say - helping people on here has little to do with your passing score. this forum is a very tiny sample of all candidate writing the exam

however if I was in a room of thousands and thousands of candidates and only I understood the entire quant chapter of CFAI text, ya maybe I’d not say anything lol. extreme example.

I agree with all your points here trimonious2 (and I seldom had to differ with what you think actually :)).

Let me explain why I think so:

  1. I also had a gmail conversation going with two friends. Out of the three of us, two of us cleared. We used to write tests and at the end of tests we would email a word document on our learnings. This document grew to a 15-20 page document actually :slight_smile: The learnings out of that document was invaluable and Ive no doubt I learned from the experiences of other two guys!

  2. Learning is one level, by teaching you take your understanding to a different level. I had a skype group where I talked about Inventory - thats a reading which I never had to touch every again as I was so confident on it :slight_smile:

  3. I completely agree with you on that!

I agree, in the sense that it’s pulled me though lol :slight_smile: Once I got to level 2 I suddenly missed the small and unspoken competition that I had with the people I knew at uni and I reckon it’s part of the reaosn I failed initially. In a sense, by being around other people that are doing finance or the material, it motivates you more, so it can be to the detriment of the brightsparks I reckon.

Trimonius, thanks by the way for the reply in the other post - much appreciated.

Regarding points 1-3:

  1. Fully agree that it is probably more relevant that if you shift the gears up one level then you will likely pass, regardless of how many co-students you have helped or not helped. For me the question more refers to the ‘Collective’ (reminds me of the BORG in Star Trek) of the CFA candidates in terms of the participation of One single individual in the Collective and how his single actions influence his relating passing compared to the other candidates. Of course, it doesnt bring you any further relatively speaking, provided that your study group is on the same level (then you also progress in a similar pace). I agree however that analystforum candidates can help each other inasfar as they put themselves collectively ahead of the non-organised lone CFA soldiers. This conclusion is probably not Nobel-Prize relevant, but it was quite late the other day when I asked the question and my brain was obviously on 50% powersaver mode.

  2. I think the situation which you have described (i.e. your own) is not reflective of the large majority of competitive environments in the financial industry in the Western world.

  3. Karma. Absolutely. I like this concept. But the Karma will wear off once you cross a certain age limit and those people that you helped and supported unexpectedly replace you in your management position. You can afford to be like this if you rank extremely high in an organisation and have an excellent network. if not, your opinion is not a good normative example of what people’s approach should be.

My own conclusions:

  1. Your Microsoft example is only loosely linked to this discussion: the CFA exam also punsihes the lowest quartiles irrespective of the absolute performances and that is where the common ground with Microsoft ends. Why does a CFA Program ‘innovation’? The only aim is to pass the CFA (and of course be a compliant member). This you can best achieve on putting a lot of effort into your studies and working on evaluating the best study method - that is actually also what yousaid under 1) above. But if this is the case, then why still ‘help others’ on AF? Probably the Karma is the over-arching principle.

  2. some people consider the best study method to study in a group and to be a ‘teacher’. For those, the AF is a formidable platform. But the motive to participate in the AF somewhat loses its altruistic motivation which is generally within the scope of potential motivations of a internet forum. Interesting to see that the other commenters made it quite clear that by participating in the AF, they hope to ‘get’ in a minimum as much as they ‘input’ into the process.

  3. Originally I was questioning rather the philosophy of the AF forum, less of the principle of a “study group”. You guys have mixed those things up. Fine. I agree that a study group is very useful for an exam such as the CFA, but only if everyone contributes. And if someone doesnt, he/she will quickly be kicked out. So there seems to be a fairness principle of the tit-for-tat principle in real world. How do you want to ensure this in AF? it is not possible and that is why I am not spending excessive time on neither sharing nor consuming material information related to the tested topics.

  4. As for myself, I passed both levels in a consecutive row with 18/20 topics above 70% and I did not participate a lot in AF nor ever was in a study group. It is also possible to pass the CFA like that and it gives you a extraordinarily good feeling to have it mastered alone.

I don’t think CFA is something that most people will need teamwork for. But if you have weak sections that other people can help you understand, then sure why not.

I must admit that I am being a little disingenuous in lauding the benefits of this forum since I have never used it to find out any answers to course material - only to view how people discuss the course itself from a meta level. I have been a little disheartened at some of the mean spirited cruelty and unwarranted arrogance of some AF members. Having said that, it’s conversations like this that restore my faith a bit (and Chad is a pretty awesome dude).

I take your point about my position not being typical of finance FO jobs and that many (most?) of them will reward competition and internercine battles among co-workers. Also, you make a good point about management turnover. The moment my allies are turfed to the sidewalk I am as vulnerable as everyone else.

I am a person who believes in fate, or “karma” as you would say. Therefore, I see no harm in helping others study better for whatever level, even if we on the same level. I have always witnessed people helping me throughout my life, so, I feel obligated to do the same.

Besides, I think it is a naive strategy to think that helping your peers will hurt you in the long run. No offense, but those who think thay way are insecure people who see threat from everywhere.