Praying at work

Water Cooler
#1

Just curious what everybody’s opinion on this is. Do you agree more with me or the office manager?

Our office is expanding. We used to have 8 people when we were fully staffed, but we just added another three. All 8 of the original people were practicing Christians. And when we would have staff meetings, we would conclude with a prayer.

Since we’ve added the other three, two of them are practicing atheists, and they don’t want to pray, so the two partners have discussed forgoing the morning prayer altogether.

This led to a somewhat hypothetical debate between me and the office manager (not quite WBC material, but not too far off,) who says, “If they don’t like it, they can just leave the room. We’re not forcing them to pray, but we have the Constitutional right to pray in a private business, and they have absolutely no right to ask us to stop. I will fight to the death for my right to a public prayer in a private business.”

I said, “If I were the boss, I would probably forego the prayer too. Because if they take off and go to a lawyer saying that we created a hostile work environment, we could be facing a lawsuit. Even if the lawsuit has no merit, it will be bad publicity and a ton of lawyer fees. I agree that they should just walk out when the prayer begins, but in this litigation-happy world we live in, it’s better to take zero chances.”

The manager then chastised me, saying, “That’s why America is in the position we’re in now, because people like you won’t stand up for what’s right.”

I retorted saying, “You’re 100% correct. And if I were the boss, and I had to choose between being a coward or being sued, I choose to be a coward and avoid the lawsuit.”

#2

In today’s edition of you know you’re from Texas when…

#3

Prayer in the office? I don’t understand. For what? Is that common in the US?

Did the three new people ask for this to stop? Did anybody ask them or are you just assuming the worst?

#4

Unless they were told during their interviews that it is a business whose owners have strong Christian beliefs that will be practiced as part of the workday, I agree the prayers should stop. If the folks who pray still want to pray, they should leave and pray in another room.

#5

  1. I think the publicity caused if they did create a ruckus would be a net benefit for your business.

  2. Most atheists or people of other religions have the respect for those that are different from them. If you hired people who don’t respect this, maybe you should look at your hiring practices and get rid of these douches.

#6

There is no Constitutional right to pray in a private business.

#7

both the atheists and the christians have rights in this situation. the best solution is what higg said. those who wish to pray should separate themselves and prayer should not be something that the company, or the head of the company, encourages.

as long as prayer, whether it be christian, muslim or other, is not part of the job (i.e. its something that workers do off schedule and on their own time, technically), then you’re okay to pray at work.

i’m not sure why prayer at work is necessary though. its not even a rights question. its a “why do you have time to pray at work?” question.

#8

@Klinko - we were merging with another CPA, but then he decided to just sell us the practice, including the employees. So we didn’t choose them. It’s more like they were chosen by someone else.

@Eskimo - It was a more or less hypothetical. At the time I was discussing this with the manager (we were the only ones in the office), she was making assumptions, and I was making assumptions from her assumptions. Later, we did the routine and they both walked out before the prayer. It seems, based on very little evidence, that they don’t really care if we do it, but they just don’t want to participate.

#9

True, but there’s also no law that I know of forbidding the business owner from leading a prayer.

#10

I 100% agree with higgmond’s idea. Hopefully these new employees were made aware of the circumstances before they agreed to join the company. As someone who isn’t religious, I have no problem with people praying whenever and however they want to. But if I was a new employee and everyone else is doing it, there would be massive pressure for me to participate so that I show I’m part of the team. You can tell them they can leave if they want, but if there’s only one person standing up and leaving then they’re kind of the odd man out.

And no, I don’t believe this is a very common practice in the US. I’ve never encountered it before.

#11

So I think the obvious easy answer would be to do the prayer voluntarily at a separate and distinct time slot (maybe in the morning). There, no problem.

#12

If I were the boss and I really wanted to do the prayer, I would just have a conversation with these heathens, and say, religion is important to us, you don’t have to join, but you are free to stay and maybe even share your thoughts in a non-religious way. Just make them feel like you are considering their feelings and respect their preferences. Also, the boss sounds like the most Texas person ever.

Edit: Yes, praying in the office is not normal in most places. In NY or San Francisco, it would undoubtedly lead to lawsuits. However, who knows, maybe it’s different in small office in Texas.

#13

Actually there is, as prayer is free speech. In Capitol Square Review & Advisory Bd. v. Pinette, the Supreme Court stated that “private religious speech, far from being a First Amendment orphan, is as fully protected under the Free Speech Clause as secular private expression.” So, a business cannot force its employees to pray, but employees do have a constitutional right to pray. Ending meetings with a Christian prayer could be creating a workplace that is hostile to non-Christians though, so I think a court would rule that such prayer would need to be disassociated from any compulsory work activities, such as the morning meeting. The caveat being if employees were told during the hiring process that every meeting would end with a prayer which they were free to participate in or free to leave the room, employees who didn’t want to pray would have a hard time winning the hostile work environment claim.

#14

Greenie, let us know if you ever talk to them, would be interesting to hear their side. Probably a non issue anyway - like you said.

#15

That’s hilarious.

What, exactly, is a _ practicing _ atheist?

#16

Agreed, I really dont understand the problem. I am an athiest myself but I dont get butthurt at people who wish to pray. I think the obvious answer is someone should sit them down and say “hey this is what we choose to do, you are more than welcome to leave once we finish the meeting and those that choose to stay are welcome to do so as well”

The only issue I could see there is if the employees were mistreated due to the fact that they did not want to be a part of that, but if that is the case, your employer is an a-hole and you should get out anyway. I dont see a problem here, let people who wish to pray do so, let people who don’t, not pray.

#17

This is somewhat related. My friend has a ‘total body, mind, and spiritual’ approach to his business. It is a faith based business and they hired someone who was not Christian.

They play Christian songs in the office for the patients (they are doctors) and the secretary they hired started to complalin.

They fired her as she was not a part of the faith based part of the business. They didn’t mind her working for them until she started making a fuss about how faith based the music and converstaion was throughout the office. They felt she was disruptive to the essence and spirit of the business.

They didn’t face any lawsuit or anything — I think private businesses can do what they want, right?

#18

The real issue here is with the office manager, who seems to be exactly what people expect of a stereotypical Texan. You could have responded to the office manager that the business was not stopping them from praying, it just adjusted a corporate meeting as to take it out. They are welcome to pray at their desk.

Feel like this could be resolved with management talking to the employees about how comfortable they would be with different options.

#19

When i read ‘total mind, body and spirit’ I immediately pictured the dude from Grandmas Boy as her boss

#20

Seems like a gray area… I would imagine they would be open to a lawsuit