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why are people screwing up the interviews?

itera wrote:
geo wrote:

^ This is true. Unless there are just no stellar financiers left in the world, there is clearly something wrong if none want to work at Itera’s shop, especially since it’s a top shop . Why aren’t you drawing in the stars? That’s where I’d start in this recruitment puzzle…

dude, you have serious reading comprehension problems. I said we got thousands of resumes. we are the ones being stringent on who we let in.

So you hand pick a bunch of people to talk to with stringent examination of their paper qualifications, then blame the people for being poor selections. Perhaps the pool sucks, in which case you’re justified in complaining, but then you’ve got to wonder why your candidate pool sucks. either there are no qualified people in the world, or they don’t want to work for you.

Or if you’re a top shop guy, which I believe you probably are, then you’ve definitely got some gems in that pool but you’re bad at finding them. I think you’re right in your complaints about the candidates, other than the work-life question. But why do you keep selecting these poor candidates?

I get it when you get 1,000 applications that you want to narrow this done quick, but appying top 2 MBA or hacksaw as filter one is probably the source of your issue. I know you want similarly elitist folks hanging with you, but perhaps filter down by some kind of demonstrable achievement first. Then rank them by the wealth of their fathers after that. But only focusing on a couple schools probably cuts a ton of quality people out too early in the process.

Yeah, it might take longer to filter if you actually have to give some loser with a tier 2 degree a read past the education section of their resume, but hey, you might find something. It sounds like your wasting a lot of time interviewing losers anyway.

“I can no longer obey. I have tasted command, and I cannot give it up.”

There are a few reasons why newer finance candidates are crap interviewers.

1)  99% of the interview advice sent their direction is garbage and doesn’t even apply to them.  Its meant for hacksaw people interviewing for hacksaw jobs that most of the BSDs in this forum will never encounter.  The types of people that check boxes on a computer, or file TPS reports day after day.  There is no critical thinking or intelligence required for these jobs, so people going into high level investment jobs will not benefit from the advice targeted towards those types of people.   The career coaching industry exploded during the recession and its pure filth (unless highly specialized, ie Numi)  

2)  They have been warned so many times about putting their foot in their mouths that they withhold everything, including their applicable job skills, their views, their personalities.  If they are afraid to have a conversation, they aren’t going to sell themselves very well and aren’t going to establish any type of rapport, and interviewers are going to leave feeling as though they were “a poor fit”.  

3)  They are oblivious idiots.  Showing up late twice in a row would be an example, as would not being formal enough, or being too formal.  Some people just don’t have the ability to calibrate their behavior to the environment. (saying you value your private time during a finance interview instead of asking what adjustments are made during “busy times” or if the work flow varies)  

Or they don’t have a real idea of where they stand in the world.  This doesn’t mean they shouldn’t try, as anyone can improve their value, but you do have to be honest with yourself and manage your expecations. 

stratman wrote:
Showing up late twice in a row would be an example, as would not being formal enough, or being too formal.  

Hell, if Itera provided me the privledge of attending his offices, I’d wear a tuxedo and be three days early!

“I can no longer obey. I have tasted command, and I cannot give it up.”

Itera, I tried to come to agreement and squash the beef.  However, you sit high on that stick up your ass and continue to preach that you are some diety kiss the ring kow-tow to me wall streeter moving the market with every mouseclick. 

Instead of ranting how everyone you interviewed sucked and discouraging the young pups around here, why not offer some insight on how someone would be a positive member to your team.  You’re so quick to just chop any sense of ambition around here. 

So, until we can come to some consensus, beef will exist.  I’ll keep fighting for the little guy who’s hungry for success.  Because, that little guy used to be me.  Had I listened to asshats like you, I’d still be working at the carwash I worked at back in the 9th grade.  However, GOOD mentors challeneged me to make do with my broken background and make something of myself; I did. 

With that, good luck finding that Top 2 mba no gag reflex ass kisser for your role. 

geo wrote:

stratman wrote:
Showing up late twice in a row would be an example, as would not being formal enough, or being too formal.  

Hell, if Itera provided me the privledge of attending his offices, I’d wear a tuxedo and be three days early!

I’d rather saw my cock off than interview with Itera.

I thought Itera and CvM were friends/bros/each others nigs….dafuq is going on here?

Ramos4rm, CFA, CAIA

geo, several problems with your comment

1) I don’t do the first cut. thats our internal recruiter. by the time I get it. I see maybe 20 resumes and choose between those.

2) by the way you basically called top school folks “wealth of their fathers” I’m going to disagree there. I came from immigrant parents who came here with nothing. still middle class today. I busted my ass to get to a top school with loans. and was at a racial disadvantage.

3) looking across the resumes most people have something that would be a demonstrative achievement, including all those that came in.

Hope. It is the quintessential human delusion, simultaneously the source of your greatest strength, and greatest weakness.

CFAvsMBA wrote:

geo wrote:

stratman wrote:
Showing up late twice in a row would be an example, as would not being formal enough, or being too formal.  

Hell, if Itera provided me the privledge of attending his offices, I’d wear a tuxedo and be three days early!

I’d rather saw my cock off than interview with Itera.


ill do the sawing for you. as a friend from AF

Hope. It is the quintessential human delusion, simultaneously the source of your greatest strength, and greatest weakness.

itera wrote:
geo, several problems with your comment 1) I don’t do the first cut. thats our internal recruiter. by the time I get it. I see maybe 20 resumes and choose between those.

Fire that dude. :)

itera wrote:
2) by the way you basically called top school folks “wealth of their fathers” I’m going to disagree there. I came from immigrant parents who came here with nothing. still middle class today. I busted my ass to get to a top school with loans. and was at a racial disadvantage.

You know you’re not the typical story of grads of those schools. The majority of grads of those top programs are grads because they come from elitist backgrounds. That shouldn’t disqualify anyone either, I’m not saying HBS is a negative by any means. I’m just saying that using that as filter #1 is probably weeding out a lot of really good people.

If you can find the guys that fought tooth and nail to get into these programs, then they’re probably stars, sure. But the vast majority are no better than Jim-Bob from Gobblygook State who couldn’t get into those programs because the spot was taken by some wealthy brat rather than the smartest or most capable kid.

I find some of the attitudes you describe, like the kid with the big ego and the girl that was late twice, are probably more common amongst the elitist top 2 grads than from the general pool. I’d never work for a guy like you or a shop like yours, but if I wanted to, I’d show up on time and I’d show respect. Because I do respect guys like you and what you’ve accomplished, even if it’s not the life for me. But if I was some trust fund millionaire, meh, why would I bother to show you respect, I don’t need you. I think that’s the attitude you’re seeing.

I’d actually show anyone willing to take time out of their day for me respect, whether that’s Itera the big shot banker or Bill the Starbucks barista, but that’s an attitude of us that fought for what we have (like you) rather than the attitude of someone that was given a top education. Of course these are generalizations, but I’ve seen enough of it to know that I’m not far off for most.

itera wrote:
3) looking across the resumes most people have something that would be a demonstrative achievement, including all those that came in.

Yet all their achievements were BS? They couldn’t explain them? This is definitely an issue, and one that I’ve seen in my past firm when involved in recruiting. What I tend to favour is experiences/achievements that are quantified and specific. It’s harder to BS those. “I added value by implementing this new process.” FAIL. “My changes to the way we approached issue X resulted in $1.5M in income for shareholders.” WIN. That’s harder to BS. Perhaps you’re doing this already, but then I’ve got to say perhaps your HR filter person isn’t doing a good job of giving you good resumes.

Or are their achievements, by your definition, just having worked for certain shops or people? Are they tangible things or just titles at certain places. I’ve seen lots of hiring done as “oh this guy was a senior here, he must be good.” That’s garbage.

I doubt the world’s supply of candidates is that poor, and you’re a top shop so there are tons of people out there willing to bust it for you.

Also consider that some people are poor interviewers. Perhaps the kid that stumbled was nervous dealing with such a BSD. Like former trader said earlier, sometimes the best candidates are the quiet introverts. I’m one of those and I’m sure I’d come across nervous in some answers in an interview. I hate interviews, I really do. Now if you give him another chance to explain himself or ask the question from a different angle and he still doesn’t seem to be giving you the straight goods, I’m not saying you give him a chance anyway. But some empathy for the situation of the interviewee may go a long way.

“I can no longer obey. I have tasted command, and I cannot give it up.”

Um. A big proportion of students at top schools are from “immigrant” backgrounds…

Part of the problem is that the system has become so routinized and automated that it’s more important to know how to fool the system to get an interview than to be genuinely qualified.  There may be genuinely qualified people there, but the reason they’re qualified is that they haven’t spent their entire adult life trying to fool automated screening systems and HR boxcheckers.  Which seems to get to villnius’ point that referrals are the only real way to go, and that is why a good MBA program is so valuable (realistically, top 10 or so, with extra advantages for top-5)

Eventually, the interviewers get tired of interviewing and just decide to the candidate who looks best in a tight skirt, because it’s too hard to bother finding genuine talent.

You want a quote?  Haven’t I written enough already???

I think what bchad says is pretty accurate. At least if the person sucks you can say “well he was from Wharton…”

I do think that people who think Ivies are mostly comprised of rich kids are misfounded though… Of course there are those kinds of kids but you really are competing with the top 5% of kids when you go to an ivy (and it tends to make you feel really dumb sometimes). I read a lot of this and it really is just jealousy stemming from not working harder in high school/college. Also, most of the people I knew were upper middle class and got in for good reason. 

I mean there’s a reason I had “no life” in high school and always saw other kids in the library on Friday and Saturday nights in college the few times I went… 

No this doesn’t make them the best candidates but your hit rate for getting a quality candidate is certainly much higher. 

Maybe I work in a part of the industry where Top 2 doesn’t mean squat when it comes to results, but the people we hired through the years from what is considered hacksaw here did much better than anyone from the top schools.  I work in the most black or white job in the world.  There is no grey area when it comes to your P&L.

Inducted into the AF Hall of Fame, class of ‘17

CFAvsMBA wrote:

Itera, I tried to come to agreement and squash the beef.  However, you sit high on that stick up your ass and continue to preach that you are some diety kiss the ring kow-tow to me wall streeter moving the market with every mouseclick. 

Instead of ranting how everyone you interviewed sucked and discouraging the young pups around here, why not offer some insight on how someone would be a positive member to your team.  You’re so quick to just chop any sense of ambition around here. 

So, until we can come to some consensus, beef will exist.  I’ll keep fighting for the little guy who’s hungry for success.  Because, that little guy used to be me.  Had I listened to asshats like you, I’d still be working at the carwash I worked at back in the 9th grade.  However, GOOD mentors challeneged me to make do with my broken background and make something of myself; I did. 

With that, good luck finding that Top 2 mba no gag reflex ass kisser for your role. 

would you like me to call the wah-bulance for you?  sounds like you need it

Hope. It is the quintessential human delusion, simultaneously the source of your greatest strength, and greatest weakness.

villnius wrote:

aznxuguy wrote:

@villnius:

Unless the function you’re looking to hire for is very heavy quant, why does having a PhD or MS make a difference? In fact, I’d find having an ok PhD to be a detractor if someone from a top school undergrad can do it since I’d assume the compensation expectations would be higher despite lower ability (I mean why bother with theoretical higher education bs if you’re in finance). The last thing I’d want to do is find a “perma-schooler”. 

The role we went to the job boards for was basically trade support. Our shop is a firm believer of promoting within and most trade support people move to the desk in some capacity within 2-3 years. For job requirements we only list a BS, (and as I posted, we ended up hiring an undergrad). But out of the 100 or so “legitimate” resumes we get from the 400, I would say 10 or so are PhD level (typically they just recently defended their doctoral dissertaion and don’t want to stay in academia.) A good 30-40 are MS level, and the rest undergrad. From our perspective of knowing the role will move to the desk, having the “overqualiified” person on trade support is just temporary, and we know we have someone on deck to move to the desk who can handle some of the more exotic stuff. As for compensation, it is not listed in the posting but it is very competitive based on not just the role, but what you bring to the table.

Which job boards do companies like yours use?

Careerbuilder, Linkedin, corporate web site, or other?

I’ve often wondered about the effectiveness of interviews.  How can you really judge work ethic and stuff based off of a few hour interviews?  Just seems to me the job market is inefficient.

^ Very much so.  The fact that there is an intermediary in between (HR) makes it even more inefficient. 

I find HR is good at tossing out irrelevant CVs but horrible at filtering out the great ones.

Inducted into the AF Hall of Fame, class of ‘17

rawraw wrote:

I’ve often wondered about the effectiveness of interviews.  How can you really judge work ethic and stuff based off of a few hour interviews?  Just seems to me the job market is inefficient.

we have a modeling exam + investment writeup + writeup debriefing on top of the 4 rounds of interviews, a person would interview and meet with at least 8 people over the course of it all.  I woudln’t call that a few hour interviews. that’s for newer folks. 

If experienced associates, we ask around as well.

Hope. It is the quintessential human delusion, simultaneously the source of your greatest strength, and greatest weakness.

Itera iter itera.  I usualy wouldn’t respond to the childish nature of your retort, but I must ask, how was your St. Paddy’s day weekend?  Considering you decided to diss me on a Friday night ~12:00 AM, it musta been a hulluva epic weekend for you. 

As for me, I had an epic weekend.  Friday I kicked it off in style heading to Midtown where plenty of Irish pubs are around attracting not only tourists seeking some NYC fun, but also a solid google of dimes from the fashion district.  I opened up a discussion with one who was not having a good night.  She was dressed to the 9s, barely had on her scandalous irish lass get up, and had some of the best bedroom eyes I’ve ever seen.  As I said, she was not having a good night until my intervention.  And if you can make a girl laugh, you can make her do anything.

Cutting to the chase, I escorted her home like the gentleman I am.  She naturally invited me up to ‘talk’ and try her new bottle of Moscato.  She lived in this shanty place right in midtown.  It was the smallest studio I’ve ever seen and there was a foot high pile of designer clothes spread about.  She wants to change and suggests I sit on her bed.  As I do, I notice something hard under the covers.  I investigate to see what it is and find an enourmous vib.  Now the last time I stumbled upon one of these when I went home with a dime, I did anything I wanted to her.  So, I did everything I wanted to this one too.  She took it like a prnstar and had to be the loudest screamer I’ve ever heard.  Those poor neighbors.  I then woke up ~7:00 AM and did the walk of fame out and back to my place where I grabbed my gym bag and threw around some weight at the gym.  Went home and took a nap to prepare for round 2.

CvM your replies are getting rather pathetic. why would I care about what you do in your personal life and also considering that has 0 to do with what we’re talking about. it comes to you are now just a troll here. you made your angry remarks. are you done?

Hope. It is the quintessential human delusion, simultaneously the source of your greatest strength, and greatest weakness.

Sorry to jump in the middle of this. But what is a hacksaw? 

I love my cheese. I got to have my cheddar.

Neryblop wrote:

Sorry to jump in the middle of this. But what is a hacksaw? 

“Hacksaw” is a term popularized on AnalystForum that is used to describe what someone should do to one’s nutsack if you didn’t attend a top 2 university or graduate school

itera wrote:

rawraw wrote:

I’ve often wondered about the effectiveness of interviews.  How can you really judge work ethic and stuff based off of a few hour interviews?  Just seems to me the job market is inefficient.

we have a modeling exam + investment writeup + writeup debriefing on top of the 4 rounds of interviews, a person would interview and meet with at least 8 people over the course of it all.  I woudln’t call that a few hour interviews. that’s for newer folks. 

If experienced associates, we ask around as well.

I still am not sure if what you described would screen for the qualities I suggested above.  I’m under the impression most people grind hard for an interview.  But maybe I give too much credit to my competition.   I could see word of mouth being valuable

rawraw wrote:

itera wrote:

rawraw wrote:

I’ve often wondered about the effectiveness of interviews.  How can you really judge work ethic and stuff based off of a few hour interviews?  Just seems to me the job market is inefficient.

we have a modeling exam + investment writeup + writeup debriefing on top of the 4 rounds of interviews, a person would interview and meet with at least 8 people over the course of it all.  I woudln’t call that a few hour interviews. that’s for newer folks. 

If experienced associates, we ask around as well.

I still am not sure if what you described would screen for the qualities I suggested above.  I’m under the impression most people grind hard for an interview.  But maybe I give too much credit to my competition.   I could see word of mouth being valuable

There’s a lot of resume dropping and cold contacting which gets filtered for “reasonable level candidates”. Unfortunately, since they lack the bandwith called time to screen so many people, the only thing they can do is use shortcuts to process 500 applicants down to 25 or so.

They then give some gruesome interview to those 25 to shape out 5 - 15 that might have half a brain according to prescribed standards / didn’t overly embellish resume. From there, they have the candidates do 30+ hour work/interviews while most have a full time job (some probably working 80+ hrs already) and hope at least one shows a glimmer of hope. 

So you’re talking about different stages. There’s MEGA FILTER –> Secondary Junk Filter –> A time akin to fraternity pledging period –> offer. You’re talking about the filtering while he’s talking about the pledging period. I forget what the exact term is but it’s basically a week of hell where you don’t sleep and wonder if there’s life at the end of the tunnel. 

Actually thinking about it now, I’d probably kill myself if I were interviewing with multiple firms and they asked me to look at say SUNE, AIG, and CHK. Different industries with different parts of the capital structure and ways to play it. 

Ah, thanks aznguy

CFAvsMBA wrote:

As for me, I had an epic weekend.  Friday I kicked it off in style heading to Midtown where plenty of Irish pubs are around attracting not only tourists seeking some NYC fun, but also a solid google of dimes from the fashion district.  I opened up a discussion with one who was not having a good night.  She was dressed to the 9s, barely had on her scandalous irish lass get up, and had some of the best bedroom eyes I’ve ever seen.  As I said, she was not having a good night until my intervention.  And if you can make a girl laugh, you can make her do anything.

Cutting to the chase, I escorted her home like the gentleman I am.  She naturally invited me up to ‘talk’ and try her new bottle of Moscato.  She lived in this shanty place right in midtown.  It was the smallest studio I’ve ever seen and there was a foot high pile of designer clothes spread about.  She wants to change and suggests I sit on her bed.  As I do, I notice something hard under the covers.  I investigate to see what it is and find an enourmous vib.  Now the last time I stumbled upon one of these when I went home with a dime, I did anything I wanted to her.  So, I did everything I wanted to this one too.  She took it like a prnstar and had to be the loudest screamer I’ve ever heard.  Those poor neighbors.  I then woke up ~7:00 AM and did the walk of fame out and back to my place where I grabbed my gym bag and threw around some weight at the gym.  Went home and took a nap to prepare for round 2.

LOL, instant classic read.  CVM, I love the way you write.

Sweep the Leg: "I’m tired."
KMeriwetherD: "Well, you were basically Legolas in the Battle of Water Cooler."

^ Thanks bud.  I’m actually going to go see her tonight.  She swore she cleaned her place and she’s ready for some more fun. 

i heard black guys like the chunkier (not fat) white girls. but a lot of black celebrities date hot white girls…see kanye and seal

"You want a quote? Haven’t I written enough already???"

RIP

^ Yes, chubby blond girls. 

Inducted into the AF Hall of Fame, class of ‘17

Kanye? Does kim even qualify as a “white” girl.