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Dealing with a job rejection

I don’t work in sales so maybe its different, but my experience is to only begin talking pay once you have an offer in hand, then go back with revisions so as to not get the cart before the horse.  Some people find it gives off a wrong vibe, like you have the job before you have it.

#FreeCVM #FreeTurd #2007-2017

Black Swan wrote:

I don’t work in sales so maybe its different, but my experience is to only begin talking pay once you have an offer in hand, then go back with revisions so as to not get the cart before the horse.  Some people find it gives off a wrong vibe, like you have the job before you have it.

With a hiring manager, I agree. However, what about an internal recruiter if it is a large company? How do you know you aren’t wasting your time interviewing only to find out in the end you are off by 5 figures or something in comp you are looking for. 

Funny you said this though because I did mention comp right off the bat for a product specialist role at VanEck and the recruiter never e-mailed me back to set up a time to speak. Guess the labor market isn’t tight enough or you might have a good point haha

Iprofit4sure wrote:

Black Swan wrote:

I don’t work in sales so maybe its different, but my experience is to only begin talking pay once you have an offer in hand, then go back with revisions so as to not get the cart before the horse.  Some people find it gives off a wrong vibe, like you have the job before you have it.

With a hiring manager, I agree. However, what about an internal recruiter if it is a large company? How do you know you aren’t wasting your time interviewing only to find out in the end you are off by 5 figures or something in comp you are looking for. 

Funny you said this though because I did mention comp right off the bat for a product specialist role at VanEck and the recruiter never e-mailed me back to set up a time to speak. Guess the labor market isn’t tight enough or you might have a good point haha

Yeah, I’ve tried to push on comp a few times when I had good reason to believe the pay wasn’t going to be a match.  Never got a response, but immediately killed the process.  It’s best to just make your own assessment then go forward.  If the offer sucks you can always walk away but probing about pay will just halt the process so its generally just not a good idea.  That said, HR still always insists on pushing me for salary expectations no matter how much I tell them no and refusal to give a response typically kills it as well.  I chalk that one up mostly to HR power trips.  

#FreeCVM #FreeTurd #2007-2017

Huh, how dare you ask for more comp for a product specialist (basically Ops) position? There are 50 other people on the line who can do the job. 

“Visit the Water Cooler forum on Analyst Forum. It is the best forum.”
- Everyone

ohai wrote:

Huh, how dare you ask for more comp for a product specialist (basically Ops) position? There are 50 other people on the line who can do the job. 

because I didn’t care and if there were 50 others then why reach out to me in the first place? Seems like there is some flawed logic there.

Iprofit4sure wrote:

ohai wrote:

Huh, how dare you ask for more comp for a product specialist (basically Ops) position? There are 50 other people on the line who can do the job. 

because I didn’t care and if there were 50 others then why reach out to me in the first place? Seems like there is some flawed logic there.

Because you came through in the same screen as the other 49 

rawraw wrote:

Iprofit4sure wrote:

ohai wrote:

Huh, how dare you ask for more comp for a product specialist (basically Ops) position? There are 50 other people on the line who can do the job. 

because I didn’t care and if there were 50 others then why reach out to me in the first place? Seems like there is some flawed logic there.

Because you came through in the same screen as the other 49 

obviously, but clearly they short list a hand full of probably 5-7 and only one gets the job. The fact is that my resume is more than likely superior to the other 49 which is why it took HR approximately 24 hours to reach out. I looked at others on LinkedIn with the same title for VanEck, was not impressed with their background so why not bring up comp immediately? 

Like BS said, if you really are excited about an opportunity, especially one you probably aren’t good enough for but are getting interest, prove yourself first then bring up money later. 

So you got the job?

“Visit the Water Cooler forum on Analyst Forum. It is the best forum.”
- Everyone

ohai wrote:

So you got the job?

lol wouldn’t cut your nose off to spite your face. Perhaps you should worry about that portfolio with the hugeee daily vol which is probably been taking a beating the past 5 days instead of posting passing aggressive comments with little to no value 

Black Swan wrote:

Iprofit4sure wrote:

Black Swan wrote:

I don’t work in sales so maybe its different, but my experience is to only begin talking pay once you have an offer in hand, then go back with revisions so as to not get the cart before the horse.  Some people find it gives off a wrong vibe, like you have the job before you have it.

With a hiring manager, I agree. However, what about an internal recruiter if it is a large company? How do you know you aren’t wasting your time interviewing only to find out in the end you are off by 5 figures or something in comp you are looking for. 

Funny you said this though because I did mention comp right off the bat for a product specialist role at VanEck and the recruiter never e-mailed me back to set up a time to speak. Guess the labor market isn’t tight enough or you might have a good point haha

Yeah, I’ve tried to push on comp a few times when I had good reason to believe the pay wasn’t going to be a match.  Never got a response, but immediately killed the process.  It’s best to just make your own assessment then go forward.  If the offer sucks you can always walk away but probing about pay will just halt the process so its generally just not a good idea.  That said, HR still always insists on pushing me for salary expectations no matter how much I tell them no and refusal to give a response typically kills it as well.  I chalk that one up mostly to HR power trips.  

It’s like the 3rd question they ask me now a days phrased as “what are your salary expectations”. Well since you asked, Debbie, I wouldnt want to do this soulless job for for anything less than seven figures nor does anyone else. Why do you just save us both time and tell me the high end range of your budget since it’s already readily published on glassdoor along with that solid 3 star rating. While we are at it, why dont we continue this charade by you giving me an offer today, i’ll pretend to work while you pretend to pay me commensurate amounts to the company growth….. Shadow growth that is, bc 10% of the company is built on a garbage island of utility and the other 90% is just government mandated to ensure the populus is busy for the majority of the waking lives and too tired for independent thought thus reliant on House of Cards (I wish I was immune) for some much needed R&R, bc you know, they day was so chaotic and important. 

Fellow brother/sisters, i am on the precipitous of reincarnating a new revolution fueled by the utter bs of this job market. The fact that a farmer can hardly make ends meet and must grow **** we don’t even eat while a ohai like figure (no offense) is raking in endless money is the epitome of backwards society and must be stopped. Stacked side by side, what’s more important, quality food or some data monkey deciding whether 5% or 6% allocation to FANGS is prudent. How many of you drudge into work day after day, each day your energy depleting further and further while the permeation of the facade of importance of your job fills the void. What is it that most of you do hahah? “We are the machines that allocation capital efficiently. We ration limited supply of capital to those who deserve it most.” Right… but what does that entail? Updating a spreadsheet (little side note, why is the finance community so behind when it comes to adopting technology), completing god’s work by preventing fraud? Propping up the baby boomer’s portfolio and pensions?

The key being is i am on the edge, friends - but ill likely keep climbing the ladder of comfy jobs, buy a second and third house, continue to grow my 401k and then push this futile agenda on my genetically gifted offspring so thus, i will indeed be incarnating something. 

*slow applause

We’re gonna win so much, you may even get tired of winning. And you’ll say, 'Please, please. It’s too much winning. We can’t take it anymore. Mr. President, it’s too much.' And I’ll say, 'No, it isn’t!' We have to keep winning!

haha its kind of funny though, that most the **** we do work on will not even see $$. but knowledge that something is ****ty still has value! we are essentially decision makers! i cant find the quote, but some big shot tech guy commented on what c-suites are for. their purpose is not to make many decisions, but to make very few but meaningful decisions. anyways be careful what you wish for, apparently cramer claims that ceos are privately telling him that things have dramatically slowed and are at the verge of cutting jobs. unemployment is at 3.7%, a 49 year low!

I love my cheese. I got to have my cheddar.

Black Swan wrote:

Iprofit4sure wrote:

Black Swan wrote:

I don’t work in sales so maybe its different, but my experience is to only begin talking pay once you have an offer in hand, then go back with revisions so as to not get the cart before the horse.  Some people find it gives off a wrong vibe, like you have the job before you have it.

With a hiring manager, I agree. However, what about an internal recruiter if it is a large company? How do you know you aren’t wasting your time interviewing only to find out in the end you are off by 5 figures or something in comp you are looking for. 

Funny you said this though because I did mention comp right off the bat for a product specialist role at VanEck and the recruiter never e-mailed me back to set up a time to speak. Guess the labor market isn’t tight enough or you might have a good point haha

Yeah, I’ve tried to push on comp a few times when I had good reason to believe the pay wasn’t going to be a match.  Never got a response, but immediately killed the process.  It’s best to just make your own assessment then go forward.  If the offer sucks you can always walk away but probing about pay will just halt the process so its generally just not a good idea.  That said, HR still always insists on pushing me for salary expectations no matter how much I tell them no and refusal to give a response typically kills it as well.  I chalk that one up mostly to HR power trips.  

nailed it.

The employer has all the cards right up until the offer is made.  Then it’s a game of poker to figure out the hand you’ve got when talking comp, ie are you their only candidate, are there others that you’re a ballhair above? Do they have a cheap internal candidate to fall back on?  Do they have some niggling doubts about you to the point where they’d bail if you push too hard?

I usually try to remain keen but not too keen throughout the process and then pull back due to a smallish issue that you need to consider but this needs to be very carefully done and can only be pulled off if an opportunity for uncertainty presents itself.

Having been through multiple hiring processes I’ve concluded that it’s impossible to navigate the process and remain dispassionate.

RIP Bchad

Iprofit4sure wrote:

ohai wrote:

So you got the job?

lol wouldn’t cut your nose off to spite your face. Perhaps you should worry about that portfolio with the hugeee daily vol which is probably been taking a beating the past 5 days instead of posting passing aggressive comments with little to no value 

The value is education to you, as I hope that you will take this information to heart and ultimately succeed in your so far, unsuccessful recruitment process. Unless you have highly specialized skills, you have no bargaining power in this process. Anyone can be taught the job that you applied for. What they are looking for is someone who can be brought on quickly, who passes a personality test, and fits their parameters for compensation. By defying one of their parameters, you have simply given them a reason to move on to another of the many candidates that they have lined up for the position. The hiring process for low level, semi skilled roles is to find reasons to reject people, not to accept them. I’m not offended if you do not accept the advice of more experienced people, but it seems that it will probably work to your disadvantage. 

“Visit the Water Cooler forum on Analyst Forum. It is the best forum.”
- Everyone

Is it just me or is Ohai turning into Itera?

RIP Bchad

Nah Ohai gives good advice

ohai wrote:

The value is education to you, as I hope that you will take this information to heart and ultimately succeed in your so far, unsuccessful recruitment process. Unless you have highly specialized skills, you have no bargaining power in this process. Anyone can be taught the job that you applied for. What they are looking for is someone who can be brought on quickly, who passes a personality test, and fits their parameters for compensation. By defying one of their parameters, you have simply given them a reason to move on to another of the many candidates that they have lined up for the position. The hiring process for low level, semi skilled roles is to find reasons to reject people, not to accept them. I’m not offended if you do not accept the advice of more experienced people, but it seems that it will probably work to your disadvantage. 

Oooooooh snap.

#veryspice

Message me about the number 1 best wine club in NYC.

ohai wrote:

Iprofit4sure wrote:

ohai wrote:

So you got the job?

lol wouldn’t cut your nose off to spite your face. Perhaps you should worry about that portfolio with the hugeee daily vol which is probably been taking a beating the past 5 days instead of posting passing aggressive comments with little to no value 

The value is education to you, as I hope that you will take this information to heart and ultimately succeed in your so far, unsuccessful recruitment process. Unless you have highly specialized skills, you have no bargaining power in this process. Anyone can be taught the job that you applied for. What they are looking for is someone who can be brought on quickly, who passes a personality test, and fits their parameters for compensation. By defying one of their parameters, you have simply given them a reason to move on to another of the many candidates that they have lined up for the position. The hiring process for low level, semi skilled roles is to find reasons to reject people, not to accept them. I’m not offended if you do not accept the advice of more experienced people, but it seems that it will probably work to your disadvantage. 

And there it is, the blood squeezed from the stone! maybe that’s the trick to getting good advice from you, just try to insult you and boom there it is, high quality advice. haha. In any event, thank you for providing the info. 

whatsyourgovt wrote:

Misery loves company - here’s my very recent rejection experience.

Company: Small (<25 employees and essentially a 3 person team within my segment), quasi consulting firm within BI

Opportunity: to grow revenue within the state & local governments (3 person team with 18m opportunity set within the next 3 years)

Team: CEO, Co-CEO (Bain/IBM Ex-execus), VP Strategy (Former ERP Exec) , Consultant (25 year old based out of state working remotely)

Interview process (3 in-person interviews, 5-6 calls):

Interview 1: standard 1 hour call with HR (HR is a 1 person team). Built good rapport with her, helped she was an alumni of same college.

Interview 2: In person meeting (3 hours) with CEO, HR, and Hiring manager (Co-CEO). Standard 1 hour devoted to my background, skill set, hour 2 was ad hoc questions, situational questions, white board concepts etc. Hour 3 was mix between compensation arrangements, and conversations around opportunity sets. Overall good experience and left feeling I presented a good image of myself

Interview 3: Mock POC (2 hour presentation, 1 hour lunch with team after). Spent an entire week learning the technology and building a POC (BI & Data Science). Nailed my presentation, CEO said he was going to be proceeding with an offer. Kicked it off really well with VP Strategy. 

**During this time I was in daily communication with HR and Consultant. HR was trying to determine my comp package (we agreed on salary but were coming to terms with bonus etc). She sent me Benefit details, company vacation etc. Consultant was there to assist in my POC. With the exception of a few questions, I did my best to exhaust on-line resources before escalating any questions to him. 

Post Interview 3: HR said Co-CEO and Consultant would like to have dinner with me. The two of them travel often together and want to ensure I’ll mesh with their dynamic. 

Interview 4: 3 hour dinner, Mortons. Steak dinner & wine with my potential team. Co-CEO is typical 50 year old hitting on waitress, coincidentally former Boston guy and competed 5 years in gold gloves. We hit it off given my mma experience, the fact that i live in boston, etc. The consultant and I hit it off too (at least i thought we did). Tho we have different upbringing (he comes from a wealthy family, lacrosse background, heavy on the tech side), we have a lot of commonality in hiking, and overall goals. 

Nonetheless, after all that work and positive reviews from the CEOS, I get a call from HR the following day (to note, I gave them a deadline to make me an offer) that the team decided not to fill the role this year given how busy they were and would likely look to hire at the start of the year, 2019. This role was my favorite and I was, to say the least, devastated. I thought I had it in the bag given the CEOs comments and HR’s willingness to send me benefit information. Obviously their sentiment around not filling the role is bs and I chalk up the outcome to something I must have said during dinner and or my dynamic with the younger consultant. Time to reflect and learn. 

Geez. What an experience. Well, better off on the last part, “reflect and learn” and move on.

ohai wrote:

Iprofit4sure wrote:

ohai wrote:

So you got the job?

lol wouldn’t cut your nose off to spite your face. Perhaps you should worry about that portfolio with the hugeee daily vol which is probably been taking a beating the past 5 days instead of posting passing aggressive comments with little to no value 

The value is education to you, as I hope that you will take this information to heart and ultimately succeed in your so far, unsuccessful recruitment process. Unless you have highly specialized skills, you have no bargaining power in this process. Anyone can be taught the job that you applied for. What they are looking for is someone who can be brought on quickly, who passes a personality test, and fits their parameters for compensation. By defying one of their parameters, you have simply given them a reason to move on to another of the many candidates that they have lined up for the position. The hiring process for low level, semi skilled roles is to find reasons to reject people, not to accept them. I’m not offended if you do not accept the advice of more experienced people, but it seems that it will probably work to your disadvantage. 

Very well said.

suppygov, I had a similar experience albeit with much less invested. I would have been the number 2 at a firm for which I’m a great fit on paper and potentially taking over in 5 years or so. CEO said we should talk numbers when I get back from vacation. While I am on vacation, they call me internationally saying the firm was sold to a large, well known company, will continue to operate independently but hiring is on pause during the transition. Haven’t heard from them in a few months now…it’s hard, because you want to imagine what the role will be like, but it is important not to fully put yourself mentally in the role until it is 100% a sure thing. 

That said, it sounds like you were working on compensation, so not sure if they actually extended an offer you were negotiating or if they were just seeing if they thought you were worth what you were asking. Either way, that’s a pretty unprofessional way to go about the hiring process in my experience. You may have dodged a bullet.

you basically need to come from a target school pedigree/work at prestigious firm in the US/have a really good connection.

- AF hivemind