Hello, So I had a few interviews in NYC spread over the month of July. I am confused between two. One is at Morgan Joseph TriArtisan, which is an analyst position in M&A. The other is a trading position at Trillium. The IB position is paying 85k+ 25% bonus. This position entails heavy financial modeling, which I am very comfortable with and the two people I interviewed with told me I was the easy first pick. So I know I would do well in this position, and excel. The trading position at Trillium, pays nothing compared to JM. As a trader they expect you to make money form your trades, but for the first year offer a meager $500/weekly. I did some research and found that most traders make close to nothing the first 6-months. Also at Trillium I would be in a year long training program (the first year) and then have to pass a test. Which doesn’t worry me at all. It’s not so much that I need the money right now, but I am wondering where I would end up in 5-years in these positions. I mean I know in the IB position, it is most analyst’s goal to make Associate, or perhaps do well and move to a bigger firm. And as a trader, you would move up by managing other traders/desk and then either start your own trading firm or go manage a Hedge fund. I am wondering what is realistic and which is more lucrative? Which is more interesting? I really know nothing about trading, so it would be a whole new world for me. So if anyone has any input on these positions or if you know anything about these specific firms, please do share. Thanks.
M&A
If you have all these questions in your mind, it suggests that you don’t know exactly what you want to do in the long-term – which is fine. But that just means that you want to take the role that will give you more versatile exit opportunities. So I would say that unless you’re set on being a trader and are already actively investing/trading, you’ll develop a more well-rounded skill set in M&A. Accounting and corporate finance knowledge will help you in a multitude of roles and you will certainly get more of a rigorous training in M&A than in trading. As for where you end up in five years…who knows? That’s anyone’s guess. When I graduated from college, I was hoping that one day I’d be one of those spotlight analysts on CNBC. But then I went from equity to research to private equity to business school and now am a summer intern at a hedge fund, so where life takes you has a lot to do with what you yourself make of things…and sometimes what you think is great for you at the moment will be totally different some years from now.
M&A, not even a question.
M&A, hands down. Even if it’s not for you, way better exit opps. Most of those trading opportunities are scams that wash out high % of candidates over the first year, leaving them with few career options.
agreed. If you are a law student, M&A is a great fit. what would you do with a law background in trading? Take the IB position, excel and never look back. but what a wonderful position to be in.
Choose M&A. You at least know what you’re getting. I would be surprised if a trader with little experience who is one standard deviation above the mean at one of those places is making what you would make in M&A. Then again the guys two standard deviations above the mean would be making tons more than you would be making. To get to that place though requires luck and perseverance.
M&A. …and something to consider if you’re still thinking about Trillium. http://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20100913006394/en
MiserableLawStdnt Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > And as a trader, you would move up by > managing other traders/desk and then either start > your own trading firm or go manage a Hedge fund. Just fyi, this is wrong. As a trader, you “move up” by managing more money/having more “buying power”. You make more money (personally) by getting the same return on more money, or ideally higher return on more money. Your comp, five years out, if you’re z = +1, will be higher at a trading firm. Trillium’s not a bad place to start.
i would trade. work life balance is way better
^ work life is way better?! uh. sure. that’s assuming you are not freaking out with losses deep in the red. trading is a dying business, the profit has been reduced so much, you’ve seen a exodus of equity day trading over the past few years.
Actually during your trainee period, you may have a pretty bad work life balance in trading… Take M&A.
I am very surprised. I threw in an app at Jane Street, and they called back. I feel like this is a life or death decision. I am going to app to more trading firms now. Just to see what happens. I wasn’t expecting JS to answer.
Trading is riskier, but probably more satisfying if you end up doing well at it. Part of the risk is your own skill and abilities, and part of the risk is what is going to happen to trading as an industry. Banks have to shed their prop trading or trim it (I’m really not sure whats happening there, because it doesn’t seem that they’ve totally abandoned trading), and so some traders have gone to the hedge fund world, which is also in a regulatory limbo these days. There are also execution traders, who don’t necessarily have to think so much, but seem to make a decent living with nice work-life balance, so that could be a way out if prop trading doesn’t fit you. That industry is in danger of being turned electronic, though. M&A is a safer bet, because companies will be acquiring each other for a long time to come. You’ll also develop a good network, and there are good exit ops. You will be in danger of being outsourced to cheaper intellectual labor countries, like India, but if you do it early, you can then market yourself to asset management firms and hedge funds. All in all, it looks like M&A is a better bet, unless you really really want to trade. And after you’ve made some money in M&A, trading will still be an option for you, I’d think. I should add that traders tend to use more technical analysis, and M&A people definitely concentrate on fundamentals, so you also should ask yourself which of those techniques are you more comfortable being immersed in.
No surprise AF says M&A hands down. This forum is full of risk-averse folks who want to get into research, banking and the overall institutional side of the business. Numi explained it well, you don’t really know what you want to do. Anyways, if you do want to trade prop not sure why you think JNYS is way better than Trillium. Trillium is a top notch prop firm, they offer you I believe around 400-500k in capital to trade your first year in, it’s all about eat what you kill just like any other prop firm. Trillium in general is a great place to work.
Exit options for trading: -You either make bank and just keep doing it and buying fancy things. -You burn out take your balll and go back to get an MBA and go do something else. -Your the 30% who just move along the same line churning out enough $$$, but never making bank or blowing up a book. Exit ops for trading, will always be trading.
I want to add that you don’t necessarily need to work for a trading firm if you want to trade. You can do M&A, save up all your money, then trade on your own and reap 100% of the benefits. Of course you’ll have to suffer the losses as well.
ManMythLegend Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > I want to add that you don’t necessarily need to > work for a trading firm if you want to trade. You > can do M&A, save up all your money, then trade on > your own and reap 100% of the benefits. Of course > you’ll have to suffer the losses as well. How many years you think one needs to work in M&A to save up 500k to bank-roll their own operation? That’s the kind of bank-roll Trillirum/DRW/FNYS/etc very well will give you within a year. Likewise all the time you spend in M&A is less time you experience learning how to trade or manage risk. There is nothing like education of being on a desk this week, or in 2008 when Bear fell, or in 2008 when Lehman fell. Or post-jackson hole. Also a shop like the ones OP is looking at have experienced people you can bounce ideas off of and a general training program to help you along. Strategies others use and access to tons of resources, books and technology. Sorry but there is big difference in the opportunity OP is turning down this early in his career and what your describing. Bottom line if OP wants to trade, there is no reason to wait around and be risk-averse.
adehbone Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > ManMythLegend Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > I want to add that you don’t necessarily need > to > > work for a trading firm if you want to trade. > You > > can do M&A, save up all your money, then trade > on > > your own and reap 100% of the benefits. Of > course > > you’ll have to suffer the losses as well. > > How many years you think one needs to work in M&A > to save up 500k to bank-roll their own operation? > That’s the kind of bank-roll > Trillirum/DRW/FNYS/etc very well will give you > within a year. Likewise all the time you spend in > M&A is less time you experience learning how to > trade or manage risk. There is nothing like > education of being on a desk this week, or in 2008 > when Bear fell, or in 2008 when Lehman fell. Or > post-jackson hole. Also a shop like the ones OP is > looking have experienced people you can bounce > ideas off of and a general training program to > help you aloung. Strategies others use and access > to tons of resources, books and technology. > > Sorry but there is big difference in the > opportunity is OP is turning down this early in > his career and what your describing. Bottom if OP > wants to trade, there is no reason to wait around > and be risk-averse. You don’t need 500k to trade. Also these big shops like Trillium are going to give you a 50% split and that might be on the generous side. If you do M&A, you can save 200k pretty easily over a couple years. And with that 200k, you’ll get 100% of the profits. Some of the best traders (Ken Griffin for example) are self-taught traders.
One OP is not working for GS TMT/Evercore/Moelis/Greenhill. So he is not even getting top of the street pay. Next if you seriously think ANY analyst leaves a wall-street 2 year stint with 200k saved up you have no idea the costs of living in a major city and how M&A guys spend $$$. The hours and abuse they take, they need to spend $$$ when available to relax and enjoy life. Just consider NYC rent, suits, food, dry cleaning, nights out etc… Exactly Ken Griffin was a total trade junkie, traded in school in his dorm room. Between classes, he lives, eats and breaths the markets. He would never tell a young trader to go do M&A for 5 years and waste valuable time learning to save up and trade later one day. Lastly yes you do need some serious capital, to make a good return and take well calculated risks.