Huh! Good God, y’all; what are they good for? Absolutely nothing. Maybe they were necessary back in the day (i.e. when coal miners in West Virginia were basically owned by the coal companies), but things have changed a lot since then. Two industries that are royally screwed up in America are auto manufacturing and public education – both are influenced by unions. I’m curious about what what arguments are out there for prolonging their existence today? Aren’t they counterproductive to capitalism?
> Two industries that are royally screwed up in > America are auto manufacturing and public > education – both are influenced by unions. I think you forgot about the banking sector…last time I checked that sector wasn’t doing too hot – no unions there.
Savage capitalism, yes, social capitalism interested in everyones wellbeing no. Can you honestly say the over a decade long meager performance by the auto makers had any strong relation to how much they pay their employees? Unions are part of capitalism, they help achieve market efficiency.
How should I know? I’m just asking.
I’m always amazed when people who claim to be capitalists complain about unions. The workers are simply trying to maximize the price of their main product. It’s what any good capitalist would do.
What is counter productive to a capitalist-democracy is the constant destroying of a strong middle class. Unions are able to represent the interest of the workers which as NakedPuts is eluding to, increases their wages to a sustainable middle class level. The “Blame the Unions First” attitude is tiring and un-researched. Give me a break. There is a lot more to blame for the failed auto industry and education system.
I am inclined to say that you DanLieb, AntionioY, TJR have never actually dealt with unions in person. My father is in the mechanical contracting business and use to own a company in Columbus Ohio, since sold it then and moved to Fla to start a new biz. The stories he told me of the unions are appaling at best. Sure Unions “capitalize” but unfairly. The unions were able to undercut my father’s business to get several govt. contracts simply because if they didn’t get it, they would get other union members in other businesses to strike, blackmail certain politicians… and probably the worst is to promise to sue the govt. and anyone else in their way if the job goes to a private company such as my fathers. It didn’t stop with just govt. jobs either, but it just worked best here. Employees on my father’s jobs were often assaulted when they left the gated work place by union members. One of my father’s employees almost died because of an attack by 3 union members. She had two broken arms and several attacks to the skull that left her permantely scarred. Unions also caused problems IN the workplace. Causing severe delays in the non-union areas by not working because the private company didn’t hire a union worker to do something such as “check the oil in the forklift.” This “oilchecker” earned a wage of $40k in Columbus ohio 8 years ago!!! My friend works on the WTC in NYC and these “oilcheckers” earn 75k. Unions are one of the worst things that can happen to a company. They disable the company’s ability to make necessary cuts in jobs and pay, curb innovation, cause corruption/blackmail. Unions have a horrible underside to them that not many people really understand or know. In the short run, Unions do help raise the standards of living for workers… but at what cost? The only reason F, GM, and Chrysler are around now is because of the taxpayers. The WSJ had an article posted not too long ago… with the amount of Govt. money thats gone into these institutions, we could have bought all the O/S of Toyota and Honda!!! I hate to sound harsh but you have been stung by the argument of the unions that we need to help the families, raise the standards of living, blah blah blah… its all garbage because in the end everyone looses. I love to see progress and its things like these that get me so frustrated. For once we had the oppurtunity to deal a decent blow to the unions in the autos. But with their ties to the govt., blackmail, high priced lawyers, etc… they got what they wanted. I mean seriously. Did you actually watch the congressional hearings? They were disgusting! Thats the kind of business attitude you want to support? And no joke that is exactly the mindset in Detroit. If the biz environment were TRUELY fair and guided by economics then unions would go bust.
CFA: I’m not claiming to have the answers. But I think from studying history we can clearly see that the pre-union pre-regulation days failed misreably in the US and every other democracy as well.
You forgot to include politicians, it’s a de facto union. Any time you’ve got a structure where worthless people can’t be removed it’s basically a union. Look at my gov Blago. The guy is on tape with all this stuff and we can’t easily get rid of him. Things like this don’t happen at functioning organizations.
Unions had a function at a point in time as others have stated. But id gander to say that in the 99% of the US there is no reason for unions anymore.
wegowayback Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > You forgot to include politicians, it’s a de facto > union. Any time you’ve got a structure where > worthless people can’t be removed it’s basically a > union. > > Look at my gov Blago. The guy is on tape with all > this stuff and we can’t easily get rid of him. > Things like this don’t happen at functioning > organizations. Is there a stable democracy where you CAN easily get rid of politicians? Blago is a jerk and is going bye-bye pretty soon. Don’t worry.
Unions have definitely contributed a lot to the betterment of society. Things like weekends, no child labor (so kids have to go to school), the eight-hour workday (esp. for factory and hard physical labor jobs). So since I think those things are important, and almost certainly would not have come without unions, I’m not inclined to reject them out of hand. However, my GF used to manage pensions for one of the automakers. The stories she told me of how these folks - many of whom may not even have graduated high school - get $120k for 8 hour days, defined benefits that are enormous proportions of their final salaries, cradle-to-grave health care, all made me wonder how unions got to the point where they could extract such enormous benefits, when clearly the industries they were working in were becoming globally uncompetitive (not all of which is their fault). I joked that she escaped the Soviet Union to come make the workers’ paradise happen in Detroit. I think the problem is entrenchmenet. The political leadership of the unions has become professionalized to the extent where they represent unions more like a lawyer than like an employee. When that happens, the ability to come to agreements based on mutual needs gets undermined, and both unions and management just push each other for whatever scraps of money are there on the table. Something needs to change about unions, but getting rid of them entirely is dangerous.
bchadwick Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Unions have definitely contributed a lot to the > betterment of society. Things like weekends, no > child labor (so kids have to go to school), the > eight-hour workday (esp. for factory and hard > physical labor jobs). So since I think those > things are important, and almost certainly would > not have come without unions, I’m not inclined to > reject them out of hand. > > However, my GF used to manage pensions for one of > the automakers. The stories she told me of how > these folks - many of whom may not even have > graduated high school - get $120k for 8 hour days, > defined benefits that are enormous proportions of > their final salaries, cradle-to-grave health care, > all made me wonder how unions got to the point > where they could extract such enormous benefits, > when clearly the industries they were working in > were becoming globally uncompetitive (not all of > which is their fault). I joked that she escaped > the Soviet Union to come make the workers’ > paradise happen in Detroit. > > I think the problem is entrenchmenet. The > political leadership of the unions has become > professionalized to the extent where they > represent unions more like a lawyer than like an > employee. When that happens, the ability to come > to agreements based on mutual needs gets > undermined, and both unions and management just > push each other for whatever scraps of money are > there on the table. > > Something needs to change about unions, but > getting rid of them entirely is dangerous. This is something I could go for. And u def. just described how the UAW works. Not suprisingly… Geddlefinger wants to renegociate those “unfair” labor terms… what a joke that guy is Good analysis though.
If companies acted like unionized employees it would be called collusion and management would be thrown in jail. Unions have a place in our economy, but I think their position has rightfully gotten smaller over the last 30 years. If you want to be scared about unions, Google “employers free choice act” and see what the dems are trying to pass through with the card checks.
AntonioY Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Savage capitalism, yes, social capitalism > interested in everyones wellbeing no. > > Can you honestly say the over a decade long meager > performance by the auto makers had any strong > relation to how much they pay their employees? > > Unions are part of capitalism, they help achieve > market efficiency. Unions don’t help market efficiency. They create a cartel. A monopoly/oligopoly isn’t most people’s idea of efficient! NakedPuts Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > I’m always amazed when people who claim to be > capitalists complain about unions. The workers > are simply trying to maximize the price of their > main product. It’s what any good capitalist would > do. But we have government oversight regulating monopolies in business. Why should labor monopolies be allowed to exist when business monopolies are outlawed?
TrojanMan Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > If companies acted like unionized employees it > would be called collusion and management would be > thrown in jail. Unions have a place in our > economy, but I think their position has rightfully > gotten smaller over the last 30 years. > > If you want to be scared about unions, Google > “employers free choice act” and see what the dems > are trying to pass through with the card checks. Thats bad…
I think that unions like governments become part of the problem when they become too big. I believe that during President Regan’s inauguration speech in 1981 he said that government IS the problem, and I think that today a lot of the misery that the automotive sector is facing comes about as a result of increasing union power. I accept unions plight to represent the interests of the worker…but what about the interests of the shareholder and economy? Willy
It’s one thing to be against the concept of unions, and believe that workers can fight for benefits they deserve without them and/or companies will oblige to the workers’ will (sigh), and quite another to be against certain unions who have grown to have political affiliations and make shady deals. Those unions which in many respects the UAW might qualify as such, are bad for any company. But the question was if unions in general were counterproductive to capitalism, I don’t agree. And however big a part UAW has played in all of this, they surely can’t be blame for the fall of Detroit. Like in every profession there are the ones who do good and those who don’t. Unions are probably counter-productive that many times as when companies try to rip people off benefits in the name of shareholders profits. Undergrad, a union is not a monopoly in any sense. It can not set the workers pay, it needs the company to be working to pay them. It’s in the best interest of the unions that the companies stay in play (that’s why the UAW offered a substantially pay cut when negotiating, but that GOP memo clearly showed they should have just stayed home cos nothing they could say would matter). It’s the balance between “the power of a workers strike” and the company “closing down production” that guarantees a fair pay, fair price of goods, and fair profit. But I get your point. The inefficiency / market imperfections comes when one group has more power than the other. Either for privileged information, a company being okay at closing production, or workers being okay at the prospects of bringing the company down. And foul pay on either side should be regulated as anything else.
WillyR Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > I think that unions like governments become part > of the problem when they become too big. I believe > that during President Regan’s inauguration speech > in 1981 he said that government IS the problem, > and I think that today a lot of the misery that > the automotive sector is facing comes about as a > result of increasing union power. I accept unions > plight to represent the interests of the > worker…but what about the interests of the > shareholder and economy? > > Willy In an agreement there are always two parties, its not the union’s fault for acting in their best interests. I think alot of the current anger towards unions comes from the current situaton with the big three, I think its important to realize that the management ultimately agreed to these contracts. Unions and short sighted stupidity both need to go.
I don’t think cjones was necessarily saying they are the root of the problem (I didn’t see any specific claim to that in his post) but he did say they are worthless, and with this I agree. I worked for a government defense contracting firm for a while and it was very unionesque due to the layered beurocracy and could have been made vastly more efficient. My bro is a pilot for the airlines, and I get a similar vibe from his stories as well. Again, noone’s saying they’re the cause of the problem (ok, I’m sure someone is, but I’m not) but they clearly do not help either.