S2000magician: the criteria for what CFAI "should do" you asked for

CFA Level III
#1

S2000magician: the criteria for what CFAI “should do” is to practice what they preach: treat the candidate body like their “clients” and establish policies and procedures that will increase transparency, fair dealings, more disclosures, fair and timely performance reporting (our results) and be more accountable (release the answer key with the results)! Be open to an independent audit.

When was the last time CFAI was independently audited not just financially as a non-profit but in their grading and exam process to check reporting errors, missing papers, data entry errors, security??? I say Never.

CFailure was not a great test taker, it doesn’t mean what he is saying is without merit. He’s making many good points. People who sign up for the CFA exams should get a “warning” disclosure like in FDA drugs we buy.

Disclosure:

WARNING, taking the CFA exams could cause your bf or gf to leave you, cause a divorce, cost you 5-8 years of your life if you don’t quit early. You might miss your kid’s first steps. People might die on you, you will have to ignore it. Most candidates quit, only 1 out of 5 make it to get their charter. 4/5 candidates don’t finish and leave depressed and wounded for life. Most people take 4 years. Some reasonable smart people still won’t pass even with 400-500 hours. Your results will surprise you most of the time if not all the time. There’s no appeal system. You’re joining a cult with cult rules. When the economy is bad, we will manipulate the minimum pass rate to control supply and demand. Don’t do this in your job, as it would violate the integrity of the market, but it’s ok if we do it, even though we teach you that you are human capital, a commodity. And we do make more money while simultaneously suppressing supply when you fail and sign back up. And passing doesn’t mean you will get a great job or more pay. Taking the CFA exams can also accelerate hair lost, premature aging, a lost of vision, back pain and some people report nightmares even after you passed the exams 10 years later. Consult God before starting.

[quote=“S2000magician”]

What are your criteria for what they should do?

Why are those the correct criteria?

#2

I asked you two questions:

1. What are your criteria for what they should do?

You’ve answered that one; if I may paraphrase, you believe that they should act according to CFA Institute’s Code of Ethics and Standards of Professional Conduct (C&S).

2. Why are those the correct criteria?

You haven’t addressed this one.

I believe that you’re mistaken in your criteria, for a few reasons:

  • The C&S applies to individuals, not to organizations. CFA Institute is an organization, not an individual.
  • The C&S applies to people who are in a fiduciary role, managing other people’s assets. CFA Institute is not in a fiduciary role.
  • Your citation of fairness is misapplied. Fairness means treating everyone fairly; it doesn’t mean treating everyone as they want (or demand) to be treated. As far as I can tell, there is no evidence that CFA Institute treats one candidate better than (or worse than) another.

Let’s take a look at your list:

  1. They don’t disclose the minimum pass rate.

What would be the benefit of disclosing it? What would be the detriment of disclosing it? Does the benefit clearly outweigh the detriment?

  1. They don’t give us back our graded exams, AM and PM.

Doing so requires that they disclose publically their questions (and, presumably, answers). What would be the benefit of returning the exams? The detriment?

Is there a precedent for returning exams? Does AICPA do so? SAT? GMAT?

  1. They don’t have an appeal process for the guidline answers. They are NOT GOD.

They may not be God, but they are the court of final decision. How many appeals do you think that they’d receive if they allowed for them? How much time (and money) would be spent on legitimate appeals? Frivolous appeals?

  1. They don’t change the 300 hours BS to ex 300-500hrs.

Do you know for a fact that 300 hours is inappropriate? How?

  1. They don’t have a candidate advisory support line.

They have e-mail, and I’ve always found them quite responsive. Why is that insufficient?

  1. They don’t have an option to have your AM paper regraded by a handwriting expert.

Do you have any evidence that that is needed?

How do you know this? Have you researched it?

You’re not clients of CFA Institute.

You are treated fairly (in the sense that all candidates are treated the same).

I’m not sure why you think that this should be closer to a democracy than a dictatorship. As one who has taught university courses for more than 30 years, I can assure you that testing has never been democratic. If I make a mistake I am happy to correct it, but my grading policy is mine and mine alone; to do otherwise would undermine the grading process.

I haven’t seen or heard any evidence of abuse, unethical or otherwise. Have you such evidence that you can share?

CFA Institute is non-profit. I’m not sure where you heard otherwise, but your source is mistaken.

#3

The amount of butthurt in this thread is too damn high

#4

Non-disclosure is the best way to tell the candidates that they may not be treated fairly.

What I as a candidate can do is to study like hell and try to clear the exam next year, and if i fail even after that, I have my answer. After that it will be my choice whether to continue this degree or not.

By becoming a CFA charterholder, as such no one becomes god or immortal

#5

Thanks Bill for taking the time to help critique my logic here. I’m going to write back privately. I appreciate the help. You have always been wonderful (and funny too) with the candidates in good times and in bad times.

#6

S2000magician, great post - nothing to add really.

My observation based on many candidates who fail the exam is that these candidates think that if they studied appropriate number of hours say 300 or more then SHOULD pass the exam and if they failed the exam candidates are angry that CFAI did not deliver on its “promise” to give them a pass in exchange for the number of hours studied.

The number of hours studied for the exam is IRRELEVANT measure, because study hour does not measure of knowledge and exam skills gained during the study process - if this is not true then it would mean that each candidate gains exactly the same knowledge and exam skills for 1 hour of study time spent and this is obviously not true.

#7

rossu12, you are right: the Candidate A and Candidate Z can sit together for 2 hours and work on the same Reading from the Curriculum. Due to their background and skill they would get different amount of information from that study session. It is totally irrelevant to judge A or Z basing on their learning hours.

But there are also Candidate B, Candidate C… Candidate Y and other 30000 people studying for L3. From that point on the personality of a Candidate is irrelevant: it’s all descriptive statistics. Take a sample of Candidates and calculate how many study hours it takes to pass - and how many hours it takes to fail.

Why is that relevant?

Since a person who was off the program and considering a retake could assess if she can afford it. If average candidate spends 325 hours on average, losers 280 and winners - on average - 480 - that could be a good indication BEFORE the registration if a potential candidate can reasonably succeed given her schedule.

Potential retaker who put 200 hours and failed could consider if he can study not 200 but 400 hours next year… and that before the registration, study grinding, burnout…

#8

to be honest,i have no idea how many hours i studied for each level. and i’m sure i’m not the only one who didn’t count the hours. no. of hours is very subjective. what’s more important is that you know the material very well. one candidate may be able to master the material in 150 hours, others might take 300, 500 etc.

the best way to know if you’ve learned the material is by answering the bb, eoc, mock exams and past years exams. if you can answer majority of those, then you should be ready for the exam. and if not you have to study more.

#9

I am not talking about if Candidate X is ready fo the exam.

I am talking about a guy who is no candidate and did not studied at all. He has a full time job and read on AF that there are people who passed Level 3 / 2 / 1 like cakewalk after 150 hours of studying. If he knew beforehand that on average it’s not 150 and not 300 hours he could consider realistically if he can stand all the learning without giving his work up.

As to study time, there are lots of technics to predict study time (not survays but focus groups etc) and I do not believe CFAI did not has that assesment.

#10

i’m not sure but are there people (assuming they are serious candidate who want to pass, not just wanted to see how the exam is) who enter the program who don’t have any idea that it’ll require a lot of study time?

#11

Seems like CFAI did have a fairly accurate assessment based on what I’ve seen. I know plenty of people who studied around 150 hours and passed. I know plenty of people who said they put in 500 hours and failed.

I would love to be in the NFL. The recommended practice times are 6 hours a day, 5 days week. I’ll double that in order to go to the tryouts. However, even if I tried, I will never be in the NFL due to numerous reasons.

#12

are you seriously still talking about this???

Here’s a hypothetical conversation with onself based on your inference how the 300-hr claim affects a decision to pursue the Charter. “I want to get the esteemed CFA designation to help further my career, enhance my investment knowledge… The CFAI says that the average to study is 300 hours (not to pass, mind you). Hmmm, I can swing 300 hours, but if it turns out to be 350hrs and still I fail I am gonna be p****d… Well, I am not going to pursue the Charter because maybe I’ll have to study more than 300 hours.” …

this hypothetical individual is the same sort of half-a***d individual who fails. Those who WANT the Charter, those who STRIVE to EARN the Charter, will do whatever it takes. If I knew what it took to be a professional athlete when I was 6, I’d be a professioning f%*#&ing athlete?! H*** NO! You mean to tell me that Tom Brady put in more effort than Eli Manning? Is that why he’s won more Super Bowl rings? S**t, maybe if someone told Eli he needed to practice 500 passes when he was 12 instead of 300, maybe he would have been the great NFL QB ever??

J****!!! CFAilure!!! STTTTOPPPPPP!!!

#13

… When i started this pursuit, I didn’t care how long it took me to study to PASS all 3 levels. I failed Level 2 and Level 3 once, and after 4 yrs I finally got through all 3 Levels. AND, my wife gave birth to THREE children during those 4 yrs, for whom I have “helped” raise, while studying, while working full-time an hour from my home. I DID WHATEVER IT TOOK TO PASS and GET THE CHARTER!! I suggest you, and everyone else who wants to “change” CFAI policies, blah blah blah, DO THE SAME!!! I’m sick of this. Quit acting so entitled. There is a difference between putting in the TIME and putting in the EFFORT. Hard work and dedication is rewarded. I have raised 3 kids and passed all 3 Levels of the CFA program in the last 4 yrs. How much time I put into being a great father and passing these exams is irrelevant.

#14

The CFA exam by design isn’t intended for everyone to pass no matter how much time they put in. Some people just don’t have the economic or financial intuition or the rote-memory capabilities necessary to pass. The CFA isn’t graded on effort. It’s graded on candidates’ abilities to be able to demonstrate knowledge in a particular way on certain financial topics. The criteria is quite clear as it is and it is up to the candidate (who are presumably all grown-up adults making adult decisions) to decide whether they have what it takes to attain the charter.

If you feel you are deserving of passing, then you must feel you have attained mastery of the CFA curriculum to a level comparable to that of charterholders. You can still demonstrate this mastery in your investing process, in your analysis, and your work. Your studying wasn’t in vain. If you think the only way to validate your effort is by becoming a CFA charterholder, then you’re the type of person who is too obsessed and distraught to get over the sunk cost of time in the CFA.

#15

If someone has to study over 300 hours to pass then they are not doing it correctly. Figure out what is most likely going to be tested on and spend 70% on that. Spend 30% on gaining a basic understanding of the rest.

#16

That sounds a bit arrogant.

Not everyone learns at the same pace.

#17

huh? and how exactly can you determine the key areas in the curriculum that will be tested when past exams indicate that pretty much everything is a fair game?

#18

+1

#19

you only hate how CFAI does things until you pass :slight_smile:

1 out of every 5 people who enter this program ends up with a charter and thats also one of its main attractions !

There is no such thing on this planet as 100% transparency and complete disclosure, so what incidents may happen within the CFAI and what politics are at play is something that is kept away from us as candidates and righfully so. Managing public relations and candidate relations is a big part of the success of this institute and sharing more info isnt always whats for the greater good. One of the greatest things about this designation is that putting in the required effort doesnt automatically mean you will pass and thats why showing up again for the exam and not letting disapointment defeat you will be the thing you celebrate the most on the day you hang this charter on your wall, its a celebration of you and what you are made of !

#20

Your post reminds me that in some jurisdictions a victim of a rape is supposed to marry the raper and love him all her life in order to keep the honor of her family. Here you are - like a victim - is claiming that sort of ‘love’, just as a methaphor…