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First Presidential Debate

Even if you’re against giving immigrants healthcare, the GOP supports denying them toothpaste and keeping children in cages. For me, it’s barely even a question.

We literally offer healthcare to people in Guantanamo Bay, why can’t we give it to people who aren’t accused of terrorism?

But also, it’s incredibly short-sighted. People who don’t have healthcare tend to delay preventative medicine and then go to the ER when it gets worse. The ER is very expensive compared to urgent care clinics. Also, single-payer is more cost-efficient than anything else.

If you think I’m spouting liberal bull****, let’s default to the Koch brothers. https://www.mercatus.org/system/files/blahous-costs-medicare-mercatus-working-paper-v1_1.pdf

But even then, here’s why I don’t care. Nobody here gave a **** when we gave 1 trillion to the rich – why can’t we give a some money to the poor? Undue the tax cuts and we still wind up net postive.

Schopenhauer wrote:

Even if you’re against giving immigrants healthcare, the GOP supports denying them toothpaste and keeping children in cages. For me, it’s barely even a question.

We literally offer healthcare to people in Guantanamo Bay, why can’t we give it to people who aren’t accused of terrorism?

But also, it’s incredibly short-sighted. People who don’t have healthcare tend to delay preventative medicine and then go to the ER when it gets worse. The ER is very expensive compared to urgent care clinics. Also, single-payer is more cost-efficient than anything else.

If you think I’m spouting liberal bull****, let’s default to the Koch brothers. https://www.mercatus.org/system/files/blahous-costs-medicare-mercatus-working-paper-v1_1.pdf

But even then, here’s why I don’t care. Nobody here gave a **** when we gave 1 trillion to the rich – why can’t we give a some money to the poor? Undue the tax cuts and we still wind up net postive.

You’re really all over the place here. Let’s dissect this:

The guys at Gitmo were brought there by the US so we bear the responsibility to look after them. Illegal immigrants came here on their own knowing the risks. We don’t owe them anything except a bus ride back across the border.

A totally separate topic is that of healthcare for all Americans, which you somehow align with free healthcare for illegal immigrants. Those are two distinct issues. 

Single-payer is more cost-efficient? No. Is it probably more convenient for patients? Sure, I’ll concede that. But with progressive liberals wanting Medicare for All, that is the likely single-payer solution. How familiar are you with Medicare? If you have the opportunity, I highly encourage you to discuss Medicare with hospital administrators or any doctor. They all hate Medicare. It massively inefficient and they pay pennies on the dollar. If we switched to Medicare for all, every hospital in the U.S. would close. Great to have health insurance but not so great if there’s no where to go for healthcare. Also, there has never, ever been an instance where a government run program has been both cost effective and efficient. On top of that, you want to eliminate competition. That always drives prices up. And the cherry on top, a single-payer system would be a government run monopoly. Literally the death cross of out of control costs and massive inefficiencies. No thanks.

Then you take a shot at the rich because everyone hates the rich…except most of the people on this board because, well, most people get into finance to become well off. And you still missed the point. Keep in mind, that’s not the government “giving” money to wealthy people. That the government taking less. That’s a huge difference, not semantics. You’re implying all of our income is the government’s first and our’s second. That’s a truly disgusting thought. 

And, finally, you ask why we don’t give money to the poor. What does that even mean? Like welfare on crack? Universal living wage? A bonus from the IRS at Christmas time? No. No to all that. The transfer of wealth via taxation and redistribution simply doesn’t work (see the above on government being horribly inefficient and bad with money).

tl;dr - You started at healthcare for illegal immigrants and ended on redistribution of wealth. You really nailed every socialist talking point in one comment. 

Sweep the Leg wrote:

The guys at Gitmo were brought there by the US so we bear the responsibility to look after them. Illegal immigrants came here on their own knowing the risks. We don’t owe them anything except a bus ride back across the border.

I mean, yes, the us is not legally obligated to give anything to anybody. But from a philosophical perspective, I’m with Rawls.

From a moral perspective what ought we do? Why should being born slightly south of the border mean the difference between being able to get an education and the ability to better improve upon your socio-economic standing? If people want to come to the US, build a life, and pay taxes, why shouldn’t they be able to? Borders are arbitrary, and shouldn’t determine wether or not someone dies from an easily treatable disease. You might disagree, but that’s not a world I want to live in

But from a practical perspective, you see them as illegal, and while that’s true, the current systems in play mean that they don’t have a functioning chance of being legal. Let’s give the opportunity to immigrants before we condemn them. Also, after a couple of generations, I’d expect that most of these people’s families start contributing about as much as everyone else in America.

It’s the morally just point and the best way we avoid Japan’s stagnation/demographic issues.

Sweep the Leg wrote:

A totally separate topic is that of healthcare for all Americans, which you somehow align with free healthcare for illegal immigrants. Those are two distinct issues. 

Not to me it aint. But that’s because we have fundamentally different perspectives on illegal immigrants, I’d oppose illegal immigration when legal immigration is easy and possible. I support strong borders, but only when we allow people to come in and work legally. The current system isn’t there.

Sweep the Leg wrote:

Single-payer is more cost-efficient? No. Is it probably more convenient for patients? Sure, I’ll concede that. But with progressive liberals wanting Medicare for All, that is the likely single-payer solution. How familiar are you with Medicare? If you have the opportunity, I highly encourage you to discuss Medicare with hospital administrators or any doctor. They all hate Medicare. It massively inefficient and they pay pennies on the dollar. If we switched to Medicare for all, every hospital in the U.S. would close. Great to have health insurance but not so great if there’s no where to go for healthcare. Also, there has never, ever been an instance where a government run program has been both cost effective and efficient. On top of that, you want to eliminate competition. That always drives prices up. And the cherry on top, a single-payer system would be a government run monopoly. Literally the death cross of out of control costs and massive inefficiencies. No thanks.

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/fact-check-delaneys-debate-claim-that-medicare-for-all-will-shutter-hospitals-goes-overboard

Also, just look at Europe. Let’s copy the best models. I don’t need to be an expert on healthcare policy to know that the US spends more and receives less than almost any other developed nation. Let’s change that.

Sweep the Leg wrote:

Then you take a shot at the rich because everyone hates the rich…except most of the people on this board because, well, most people get into finance to become well off. And you still missed the point. Keep in mind, that’s not the government “giving” money to wealthy people. That the government taking less. That’s a huge difference, not semantics. You’re implying all of our income is the government’s first and our’s second. That’s a truly disgusting thought. 

I’m in finance too, I don’t hate the wealthy. I hate billionaires that inherit their money. If you wanna be worth 10 million dollars, go for it. 20 million? Sure. 2+ yachts? Hold Up.

Sweep the Leg wrote:

And, finally, you ask why we don’t give money to the poor. What does that even mean? Like welfare on crack? Universal living wage? A bonus from the IRS at Christmas time? No. No to all that. The transfer of wealth via taxation and redistribution simply doesn’t work (see the above on government being horribly inefficient and bad with money).

I’m against the concept that fiscal conservatism only comes into play when a dem is talking. That we can spend 750 billion on wars and nobody bats an eye. We can pass a massive tax cut and nobody says anything.

But when the other team starts talking, then deficits matter.

And by giving money to the poor, I mean healthcare. But you probably know that.

Went to edit, accidently triple posted. I’m not a smart man.

^ Lol.

I agree with elements of both sides.  I agree with STL and folks and don’t have sympathy for people coming here illegally.  I agree with Schoops that we need some reform targeting wealth disparity that’s creating class systems.  I like healthcare reform but think the road to single payer needs to be longer off with us getting the system efficient first.

#FreeCVM #FreeTurd #2007-2017

poor people typically remain poor. so i doubt their future will add value these are the illegals.

majority of the time. the ones that rise are legal immigrants that were already well educated. usually they live the american dream.

not the dude that jumped the border. cept that chick in spanglish! she got into an ivy! but to be fair mom was a hottie. and i’ve always said we need hotter chicks in this country.

I love my cheese. I got to have my cheddar.

i’ll have to disagree with you there stl. single payer does work:

https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2012/06/heres-a-map-of-the-countries-that-provide-universal-health-care-americas-still-not-on-it/259153/

for some reason the us spedns too much per person. makes me think that too many hospital arent working hard enough. and we need to drive up their volumes. pharma is also screwing us. what the actual ****. they think we’re gonna subsidize other countries. 

trump is actually proving to be a smart leader. attacking chinese. limiting immigration and lowering our liabiltiies. the only thing missing is how he’lll balance the budget!

I love my cheese. I got to have my cheddar.

How many homeless people does everyone walk past a day? I come across a ton and i’ll give them change every time i have it and once a week ill buy some food. I can say im the exception (most cars simply keep their window up). I say this because I find it ironic. A lot of these homeless people are vets, have no shelter, health care, support system and yet no one talks about them nor do people actually help out and I am in a very liberal city. I hear other cities are worse – seattle, LA, etc.

Now I’m with you schop, i think we should all do our best to help out - i live by this ethos and personally donate or buy food (I have a bigger heart for animals so i do even more in this front). I am also reminded of the saying, make your bed before doing anything else. How are we going to help illegal immigrants, let alone legal, when we can’t even help our fellow citizens. More importantly, that majority of this debate is just lip service anyway and I think nerry is at least honest enough to admit the vast majority of people dont care - i view this on a daily basis - and that won’t change anything if they allowed in. 

Anyway, give a dollar today, adopt a pet, donate to charity. Community service will go a lot further than any national legislation. 

I also think we should take the homeless and send them to Mexico in retaliation.

I love my cheese. I got to have my cheddar.

LMAO

#FreeCVM #FreeTurd #2007-2017

Nerdyblop wrote:

i’ll have to disagree with you there stl. single payer does work:

https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2012/06/heres-a-map-of-the-countries-that-provide-universal-health-care-americas-still-not-on-it/259153/

for some reason the us spedns too much per person. makes me think that too many hospital arent working hard enough. and we need to drive up their volumes. pharma is also screwing us. what the actual ****. they think we’re gonna subsidize other countries. 

trump is actually proving to be a smart leader. attacking chinese. limiting immigration and lowering our liabiltiies. the only thing missing is how he’lll balance the budget!

It’s just because we largely subsidize the rest of the world. It’s a complex analysis to do and I am very skeptical of things that just rank countries the size of Delaware and say how it’s clearly the winner. 

The single-payer debate is something of a false choice, why can’t we have both single-payer and private insurance?  I believe countries like Canada and UK have these systems.  

Wait what? If you have single payer it’s usually just the government paying for everything. They may contract the work to private people, or hire out their own doctors etc.

I love my cheese. I got to have my cheddar.

Malee wrote:

The single-payer debate is something of a false choice, why can’t we have both single-payer and private insurance?  I believe countries like Canada and UK have these systems.  

the UK yes, Canada no. The Canadians didn’t want a “two tier system.” So wealthy Canadians come to the US for treatment

———————————————– Trust God and keep your powder dry ———————————————– Southern by the grace of God

And Americans go to Canada for affordable treatment.

Remember when Rand Paul went to Canada for his surgery?
 

I’d like to see candidates give a 90-second opening statement in the next debate. Otherwise they’ll continue to dodge questions in order to get in their sound bites.

Should also get rid of the studio audience, so time isn’t wasted with idiots hooting and clapping like they’re at Jerry Springer show.

Should also get rid of anyone who isn’t Biden/Warren/Sanders/Harris/Mayor Pete

No sane person enjoys seeing homeless or sick people in society neither does one think that being born in some third world country without any resources is cool or people don’t deserve better.BUT this doesn’t mean taking the standpoint these lefties are taking. 

yep. my thoughts and prayer go out to those who suffer. i definteily want them to have a better life. but thats just it, the buck stops at thoughts and prayers, i dont want any expense! best of luck!

I love my cheese. I got to have my cheddar.

CEO10K-DAY wrote:

Why are they all wearing all white anyways?

edit: Wait a second. . from last nights debate: “All economists agree that carbon pricing works, you just have to do it right”. 

I thought that this was not true? 

there used to be an old joke that Winston Churchill said he asked 3 economists a question and got 4 different opinions (because Keynes always had two). It’s certainly not true that “ALL economists agree…”. Austrian school for one.

———————————————– Trust God and keep your powder dry ———————————————– Southern by the grace of God

Schopenhauer wrote:

And Americans go to Canada for affordable treatment.

Remember when Rand Paul went to Canada for his surgery?
 

Rand Paul is discussed here

Sen. Rand Paul says the free market pushed him to Canada for surgery

Senator Paul needed hernia surgery after he was attacked by a crazed liberal. As a senator, he’s probably got very good insurance.

The private hospital he went to is grandfathered in having been in existence before Canada’s socialized medicine came into existence, but can only take cash from foreigners. Canadians have to wait in line and be paid for by the government.

The illegality of private health care in Canada

Private healthcare is illegal in 6 of the 10 provinces, including Ontario

I know of at least one hospital in Ontario that was making extra money by letting veterinarians use their MRI machine at night (this was 20 years ago,  so no idea if they’re still doing it), because they could charge dogs to use it but not people. So a dog could get an MRI right away but people had to wait in line.

———————————————– Trust God and keep your powder dry ———————————————– Southern by the grace of God