bromion Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > You people are on drugs. MBAs are not a cure all > for your career. Every year, lots of people try to > switch careers and fall on their faces. Every > year, lots of people, even with good experience, > try to get a job at Goldman or SAC and fall on > their faces. Going to a top business school is not > going to give you a permanent one way ticket to > the fictional land of puppy dogs and rainbows that > will nourish your soul forever and ever. In a > recession, it’s worse still. Bromion, no one is saying that b-school is the panacea of life’s problems. But here’s what a top MBA can do for you and the reasons why so many people want to go. First and most importantly, if you want to make a switch into a different field, there is NO better way to go about this than attending a top MBA program. A teacher or an engineer who wants to go into strategy consulting, can easily get interviews at top consulting firms once he’s at one of those schools. Or with my situation, I want to go into IM, and there’s almost no way i’m gonna get an interview at a place like wellington or capital group in my current state. Going to a place like wharton or booth will open doors that i otherwise cannot. And the social benefits and memorable life experiences are something you shouldn’t discount. Virtually every student has told me that b-school was the best 2 years of their life. They were able to travel and do things they otherwise couldn’t and forged lifelong friendships and networks. A top MBA program is worth every dime.
^^^Worth every dime for the right person. What if I’m a PM making $1mm a year? BTW, you never said if you are a nerd, jock, musician or combo. That is really the key consideration.
brain_wash_your_face Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > ^^^Worth every dime for the right person. What if > I’m a PM making $1mm a year? > > BTW, you never said if you are a nerd, jock, > musician or combo. That is really the key > consideration. I lean more towards the dorky type but loves football, poker, girls, and going out. I want to be around certain types of people, and going to business school is the best way to go about that.
I agree that a top MBA is someone’s best shot at changing career’s. But that person has to realize, even though it is their “best shot”, it’s still a very difficult shot and the odds are still not in their favor. But are probably higher than before on an absolute basis.
I am looking at going for a top 10 MBA in the next few years. I want to get a little more experience and volunteer work under me to enhance my chances. For me, I think it would be worth it considering my pay right now is pretty darn low which mean the opportunity cost of doing it is not that large. Also, the potential jump in income afterwards and more opportunities would be great.
Background is being overlooked here. As an example, some friends from my business school years include: a son of a Fortune 60 company’s CEO, a West Point alumnus who had jaw dropping jobs in the military prior to the MBA, a nice Chinese gal who was really corrupt but brilliant, a Russian Math freak, to name a few. We couldn’t be any more different, and as a result, how we were perceived by prospective employers varied a lot. So the job market is good or bad depending on who you’re asking, even among members of the same class. Overall, as bromion suggests, even top three MBA programs are better suited in my opinion for people who still don’t reach a significant income level. As an experience, it’s indeed hard to beat. To be honest, I admire people who don’t need graduate degrees to make a lot of money.
Inner Evil Voice Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Overall, as bromion suggests, even top three MBA > programs are better suited in my opinion for > people who still don’t reach a significant income > level. As an experience, it’s indeed hard to > beat. This is a good post. It’s not that MBAs are worthless by any stretch, it’s just that a lot of people think they are the end all, when in fact for most things they are not (but they do hold some value for a lot of things, and a lot of value for some things). Extreme credentialism runs high in our society and on AF in particular, and I think a lot of people could be disappointed when they realize that they are not set for life just because they decided to spend two years acquiring basic finance knowledge while paying $200K for the privelege of not working.
bromion Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > basic finance knowledge $200k is well worth building a few CAPMs and developing intangibles the like of referring to a hook-up as an ‘arbitrage.’
mar350 Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > bromion Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > basic finance knowledge > > > $200k is well worth building a few CAPMs and > developing intangibles the like of referring to a > hook-up as an ‘arbitrage.’ Touche. I agree with the last one especially. Although few spontaneous hook-ups are truly “risk free” (who knows what sort of unsystematic risks you might encouter during the transaction).
unlock the value
Inner Evil Voice Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Background is being overlooked here. As an > example, some friends from my business school > years include: a son of a Fortune 60 company’s > CEO, a West Point alumnus who had jaw dropping > jobs in the military prior to the MBA, a nice > Chinese gal who was really corrupt but brilliant, > a Russian Math freak, to name a few. We couldn’t > be any more different, and as a result, how we > were perceived by prospective employers varied a > lot. So the job market is good or bad depending on > who you’re asking, even among members of the same > class. > > Overall, as bromion suggests, even top three MBA > programs are better suited in my opinion for > people who still don’t reach a significant income > level. As an experience, it’s indeed hard to > beat. > > To be honest, I admire people who don’t need > graduate degrees to make a lot of money. Wow. Your business school classmates sound really interesting. It’s hard to meet those kinds of people where i’m at, hence one advantage of going to a top MBA program.
ksc1940 Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > a nice Chinese gal who was really corrupt but > brilliant, Did she mis-represent her L3 candidate status in the CFA program and was assassinated by the Chinese government afterwards?
I recently talked to some people at booth and columbia, and they said that investment management and hedge fund recruiting is up sharply this year. Top firms like citadel, soros, SAC, viking, highbridge, etc., are all doing on-campus presentations and doing interviews. If I can get into a top business school, making the switch into IM is completely doable. Otherwise, I’m screwed.
What kind of compensation progression is there for someone coming out of say Wharton working at a buy side shop (not hedge fund)? I see starting total comp is about 150k according to their recruiting report, but how fast does it grow from there over the next few years? Obviously a PM at a large mutual fund is +1 mill, but I’m more concerned about 3 to 5 years out.
ksc1940 Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > I’m applying to the following MBA programs this > year. My goal is to go into equity research at an > investment management firm afterwards. > > wharton, booth, kellogg, columbia, sloan > > The consensus seems to be that wharton and booth > offer the most opportunities. I was surprised at > how many buyside firms recruit on campus, such as > wellington, fidelity, capital group, dodge and > cox, state street, etc. And there are plenty of > people without previous experience who managed to > get jobs by taking the right classes, learning > stock pitches, networking, and doing well in > interviews. > > Columbia has the value investing program, which is > unique and quite interesting. Of course, it’s > quite selective. But overall they seem to be > slightly below wharton and booth with respect to > IM recruiting. > > Sloan is very well-connected with the boston IM > shops as well as some hedge funds like tudor and > convexity. > > I’ve heard that kellogg is awful for IM, but they > do have an asset management practicum, which > provides some opportunities. > > I would love to hear other people’s thoughts and > experiences on this. I did my undergrad at Wharton…best experience!!! If you can’t get into Wharton…I recommend Columbia…some of the instructors in the Value Investing program are Wharton grads…they’re teaching a combination of the Wharton IM curriculum and the solid Value Investing approach. Yes, you’re spot on about the recruiting opportunities at Wharton/Penn. Sweet!!! W
You people are happily on drugs. MBAs are a cure all for your career. Every year, lots of people try to switch careers and frolic. Every year, lots of people, even with good experience, try to get a job at Goldman or SAC and frolic. Going to a top business school is going to give you a permanent one way ticket to the lovely land of puppy dogs and rainbows that will nourish your soul forever and ever. In a recession, it’s worse still (less puppy dogs).
Analti_Calte_Equity Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > You people are happily on drugs. MBAs are a cure > all for your career. Every year, lots of people > try to switch careers and frolic. Every year, lots > of people, even with good experience, try to get a > job at Goldman or SAC and frolic. Going to a top > business school is going to give you a permanent > one way ticket to the lovely land of puppy dogs > and rainbows that will nourish your soul forever > and ever. In a recession, it’s worse still (less > puppy dogs). Your attempt at humor is noble but falls short. On a more serious note, no one is saying that a top MBA will guarantee you a dream job or wealth. Merely, a top MBA program is the best way to make a transition into investment management since a lot of these firms recruit at schools like harvard, wharton, booth, sloan, columbia. For someone who does not have previous experience in the field, this is the best way to break in.
As someone that’s currently a first-year at one of the business schools that’s so popularly discussed on this forum, I feel compelled to share my thoughts on this subject especially given since I am going through recruiting right now. With respect to investment management, I would say that the best business schools for that are the ones that would give you the broadest access to pre-eminent hedge funds and asset managers. I would say that HBS is at the very top of that list, followed by Wharton, and then Stanford, Chicago, Columbia, and Kellogg in some debatable order. The reason for my assessment is simply based on the number of peers and alumni that are in the buy-side. It doesn’t mean that Columbia is a better business school than MIT Sloan, or that Wharton is somehow better than Stanford – what you’ll find at any top business school is that your experience is largely shaped by your peers as well as those that graduated before you. The alumni base is what you are relying on in order to gain access to various networks. Now, with that said, I also want to reiterate the fact that simply going to HBS or Wharton are not your golden ticket to getting into the buy-side. The fact remains that everyone at the top of the pecking order in terms of gaining traction on the buy-side had relevant pre-MBA backgrounds. You think just because you go to HBS that you’ll get into a prominent investment management firm? Get in line behind the 50 or so of your classmates that worked at the top leveraged buyout firms or asset managers, followed by the other 50 classmates that worked at mid-size PE/HF shops or VC firms, followed by the other 100 or so people that did banking at some bulge bracket bank or McKinsey/Bain/BCG covering financial services/PE clients. Now, while Lady Luck has been known to reward just about anybody and every so often a sun does shine on a dog’s ass, you have to figure that it’s the people with relevant pre-MBA backgrounds that get the top jobs. And in fact, I was just having a conversation with my friend who’s the top-ranked first-year associate in Deutsche Bank’s IBD whether she should go to business school or just to find a top-paying job, and I advised her to get her applications in but then charge hard at finding the best buy-side job. There is a major opportunity cost of being in business school – certainly I have enjoyed my experience here because of the people I’ve met as well as the career doors it’ll open for me (I am a potential career switcher from finance into corporate strategy) – but really, if you could get the coveted investment manager job without having to go to business school, it’s something worth thinking about. For everyone else in business school, remember you’ll be competing primarily with your classmates that *do* have experience on the buy-side, and there are a sh!t ton of them at any of the schools I mentioned. Anyway, I realize this is just one person’s perspective but hopefully it provides some candid glimpse into how recruiting actually works. I felt that since I’m going through the process right now, I should try to de-mystify the MBA experience as well as recruiting in general.
numi, can you go alittle more depth into buyside jobs vs what you’re calling “top jobs”? I have buyside experience (and soon the charter) but I work in managers of managers (not hedge funds) so I won’t have any direct experience if I try to get a job at a hedge fund or equity shop. Are you saying I would be a longshot at Wharton trying to get any buyside job, or just that I’d be unlikely to land a “top” job? Also, any info on compensation 3-5 years out would be greatly appreciated.
numi Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > > The fact remains that everyone at the top of the > pecking order in terms of gaining traction on the > buy-side had relevant pre-MBA backgrounds. > > you have to figure that it’s the > people with relevant pre-MBA backgrounds that get > the top jobs. For everyone else in business > school, remember you’ll be competing primarily > with your classmates that *do* have experience on > the buy-side, and there are a sh!t ton of them at > any of the schools I mentioned. > Great write-up from Numi. For people trying to break into finance, or are stuck in a BO role, getting a top MBA will give you a better chance of making it. Just realize there’s never any guarantee, you are competing against top students WITH experience, and it is a very expensive opportunity cost. Your odds do improve if you can get accepted to a top MBA school, but without real relevant experience, they are still low.