With statistical control, you can still compare underprivileged kids who went to preschool and those who didn’t. Any study done by a reputable researcher would have to do that, since the control variable is such an obvious one. That sort of thing isn’t quite as good as a truly randomized study, because the sample sizes may differ substantially, but it does have an advantage in that 1) it doesn’t prevent kids from entering pre-school if they want to (I’m sorry, Jr. you’re in the control group, so we’re not gonna teach u nuttin for a few years), and 2) you don’t have to follow them for 25 years to figure out how it all works out.
However, marketers will just choose whatever version of the study makes their message sound best, so well-designed research may just go out the door.
I mean, we don’t even need any research, just look around us, there are probably enough empirical evidence to draw the conclusion.
I know many of my friends or family friends who have siblings going to different schools and come out very differently.
One example, a relative of mine has 3 kids, they are all around the same ages (2 years max apart) and first 2 went to private kindergarten because they were rich at the time, but when the 3rd one came along the money was tight so the youngest one went to public kindergarten.
Eventually all 3 kids went to public primary schools, so they only had the first few years of advantages. Guess what, the oldest child didn’t go to university (chose not to) but has his own business and quite successful and independent, the second child is some scientist, went to a good university. The youngest one has an average sales job at a retail store.
I know some may say it’s not enough “evidence” but i know so many people who went through private schools when they were younger and found school later on in life easier and did relatively better. I don’t think it’s a coincidence that the people who did well are just born smarter either.
Any one of these languages (Mandarin, Arabic, Russian, Portuguese) would be an asset and really help your career, but you need to most likely be based in these countries and speak with the folks who don’t speak English. From my personal experience, people switch to English by default once they are in an “international setting”.
Dude my advice. Unless you have a strong love of the language and plan on spending more than 6 months LIVING WHERE IT’s SPOKEN, you’re never going to put in the hours and hours needed to learn it. How many? Roughly 5000 at a minimum.
You can’t stop at what the books teach you (and that itself will take you more than 2000 hours) as there’s idioms and the way people actualy speak that you won’t understand until you’ve spent this amount of tie on it. It takes YEARS even if you’re studying it full time. I should know as I speak fluent Italian and German taught myself and not through uni (and yes I’ve sat the Eupropean language exams at the highest levels so I can actually put it on my CV). That’s the ONLY level that’s going to help your career in any way not some bullshit Rosetta Stone (are you SERIOUS!).
Get some grammar and verb books and see what it really involves to learn a language.
BTW I speak other languages so I have a natural flair and I’m a senior quant so if you’re not a crazy logical, right-brained, OCD freak for study like me you’ll probably take 10 000-20 000 hours Good luck!
And finally DO NOT put that you can speak a langage fluently on your CV in finance and not actually be able to. Someone WILL test you and they WILL think you’re a lying imbecile (and yes tell everyone) in you can’t speak, write and read it. I’ve seen it happen eg immediately translating websites/emails for bosses you drop by/calling/emailing overseas offices. Also, many people in NY and London can speak at least 2 languages so they will always be others around to test you (like your interviewers for example I’d expect that it’s a minimum in today’s global context myself. So you’re actually effectively handicapped if you can’t.
Not sure what your point is. You should never put ANYTHING untrue on your CV - are you under the delusion you’re providing some groundbreaking advice here?
And btw, 5000 hours to learn a language? No way, that’s 2.5 years of 8-hour days, even the DLI estimates are much lower than that.
kartelite - do you know any languages apart from English? Of course not. Go ask university students who take languages how long it takes (3 years minimum for all courses on TOP on high school in that language NO-ONE can take a language at a uni without that background which is again 3- 4 years). 2-3 years is the ABSOLUTE MINIMUM it takes to learn a language unless you are talking about muttering broken introductions etc which Rosetta Stone teaches you.
As for putting languages on CV’s, again you don’t know what you’re talking about. LOTS of people (grads with low grades) put it on there hoping like the questioner here to differentiate themselves without actually knowing much more than a few sentences.
Kartelite maybe offer your groundbreaking contributions when you learn more about the industry, and don’t disgree with someone who knows what they’re talking about. Dick.
Word You need to be immersed in a language in order to learn it. On top of that, you need to have a strong desire to learn the language. When I lived in Spain, I knew many American who only knew how to say, “Quiero una cerveza y un bocadillo, por favor” and that was it because they only hung out with other Americans and never truly immersed themselves in the language or culture.
I live and work in Switzerland. And am frequently involved in interviews. Not because I am a senior manager, but simply because we are a small team.
We usually pay a lot of attention to language skills. I grew up tri-lingual and speak a number of different languages. So far I have yet to meet a candidate who does not inflate his/her language skills. Incredible. These are educated people, substantially more than me. You would be surprised how many young folks I have spoken to who are past Math and or Physics Olympics winners in their respective regions in China. Or French Rocket Scientists. British World Inventors. Everything. You ask them whether it is ok to switch to German, as they claim to be perfectly fluent in German and it makes you wonder why the most widely spoken language in the world is still English and not German. And you will see them starting to sweat, stutter, breathing deep and long and then telling you some lame excuse. German is interchangeable with any other language the candidates are not native speakers of.
And it makes you wonder, how much the rest of the CV actually represents the truth. On the other hand side: if they had not claimed to be fluent in more than one language, we would probably not have invited them for an interview. We carry a fair share of responsibility on this one.
This may differ by region. In Europe, the number of multilingual people as a percentage of the educated population is substantially higher, in part because it can be hard to travel more than a few hundred miles without having to switch languages at least once. As a result, the standard of fluency and the pressure to claim fluency may well be higher.
Here in the States, we often consider ourselves lucky to find someone who can even have a short conversation in another language and so we may not completely crush them for saying that they speak some language but not be able to enter legal debates in that language on a moment’s notice, especially outside of major immigration centers, like New York. If you haven’t married into a language or come from a family that speaks it, language skills get rusty over time and you may not have anyone to practice with. I can very easily imagine a situation where the guy spoke the language when they originally put it on the resume, only to discover in the interview that they’ve forgotten a lot over time. That sucks for them of course, but it’s not the same as deliberate deception.
Speaking another language over the phone is definitely one of the hardest tests to pass, particularly if there is a lot of idiomatic usage, a strange accent, and the other guy is on a cell phone. I dare say many native English speakers would have trouble passing that test with someone from Glasgow, and those who do would probably stumble over a phone call with a quick talkin Dallas native.
I speak only one other language fluently, but I can more or less get along in a third, provided we stick to business vocabulary and don’t go too fast. And I can read two other languages enough that documents in those languages aren’t a huge problem. I’m generally pretty clear about that when interviewing, but it does take longer to explain on a resume. A recruiter once switched into my third language to test me, and fortunately I passed the test, but would not have enjoyed the stress of dong the whole conversation in it, particularly since the interview is already stressful enough without the additional question of “am I absolutely sure that’s what he said?”
I’m a dumb guy, but still able to speak with americans on the phone often, with hardly any issues. I’m pretty sure my hours of English “practice” (which consisted of reading about random things and watching sitcoms) were way below 20 thousand hours. I’ve never studied English per se - it was (and is) mostly just a tool to help my study “freakness” in other fields.
The first time I went to US on business/studies I felt insecure at first, but after a couple days my interactions felt pretty natural.
Of course I probably have an awful accent, so maybe that’s where your advice comes from. Still, in my opinion, such an extreme commitment does not seem necessary when trying to to learn languages to a decent extent.
Also, as Bchad pointed out, some closely linked languages offer an inherent advantage for the student. I don’t study Spanish but I can usually understand spanish interviews just fine. It is just a guess, but I’m fairly certain I wouldn’t have to spend 5 years in Argentina to be able to communicate well there.
In order to maintain my Spanish, I listen to Spanish talk radio over the internet very often. I find that listening to the radio helps my comprehension far greater than television becuase with radio the other physical forms of communication are eliminated and you have to focus solely on the words. Also, it really helps with developing and maintaining the accent. In regards to Spanish however, there are many nuances and accents in Spanish from different areas that make it difficult to understand. For example, I can understant Spanish from Spain with ease, but I always have to concentrate to understand Carribean spanish (even thought my gradparents were Cuban). Also, I cringe when I hear other accents like uneducated Northern Mexican spanish or Ecuatoriano Spanish. It sounds like nails on a chalk board to me.
I think learning a language has to also paired with the interest of the culture as well.
Say many Americans learn Japanese because they like to read manga and watch anime, i am sure they don’t find it super “tough” or painful to learn the language because they have a bigger motivation behind it.
Same goes for my Japanese friend, she is always obsessed with fashion and cosmetics, she works for a french label, and for her, learning to speak french is part of her job, but also an interest because she would like to better understand the products and ask questions, etc…
As for how many hours to learn a language, that i do’nt know, but if you enjoy it, you wouldn’t find it difficult to find time and you wouldn’t necessarily notice how much time you’ve spent on it.
If you could read English, you’d notice earlier in the thread I said I speak multiple languages. I’ve passed the highest level national exam in an Asian language (would let me enter university programs conducted in that language), I’m fluent (by any standard) in another European language and have workable proficiency (can pretty much read a newspaper without a dictionary) in a fourth. I studied all the languages in the local country, but (for two at least) also dedicated considerable time to self-study. But nowhere near 5000 hours. I feel like you’re just trying to discourage people for whatever reason. I bet most of the people on this forum are not native speakers (some having never lived in a country where English is spoken), but their level is quite good nonetheless (taking a CFA exam is hard enough in your native language).
Greenman - No I did not, but one of my best friends did for two languages, the first one a year or two after you were there (including a Category IV language that I also studied). I’m pretty sure the bar is higher on languages like French/Spanish to be honest though. He scores around 2+/3 on his tests, and I’d say we’re roughly at the same level, both having lived in the country for years. Cool that you were there.
Good luck!