Forget Obama - Are YOU smart?

But this is kind of my point with all this – that’s what it means to you.

If I say I am a medical doctor, the vast majority of laypeople will say “she is smart / intelligent”. I’m not saying that’s wrong, nor that it’s right, it’s just that it can be a meaningless word when you think about it. I might personally think that being a doctor in and of itself is not enough to conclude a diagnosis of intelligence (in my sense of the word).

I’m not sure exactly what you mean by “pattern recognition”. Does someone who can sublimely work a room (through their exquisite understanding of human psychology) and achieve social success that would be unmatched even by someone with a ludicrously wide and deep knowledge base qualify under your definition?

And, then, if it were to qualify, and we were seemingly to generalize the definition of “pattern recognition” to whatever situation we are confronted with where there is an element of visible success, then is there a use of such a definition? Is “successful” already a better word for those situations? I think in a lot of instances, it is.

Even moving to the other end of the spectrum, where let’s say we have a very solid academic mathematician but with no reason to call them obviously successful, would we still describe them as smart if they didn’t know, and couldn’t adapt to, the elementary norms of social behaviour such that they lived a miserable life and had no impact? They are certainly able to produce impressive cognitive feats in manipulating numbers, so is that sufficient to warrant an assertion of intelligence? It no doubt is in our society, and I’m not saying that’s preposterous, but what does it signify? Could I train pretty much any child from a young age to do the same thing? If so, does the label of intelligence still have its aura?

I think it’s an interesting discussion though, there don’t seem to be any easy answers. Even though the term is used in a frivolous fashion as if its meaning was the most obvious thing in the world.

Pattern recognition is the most agreed upon definition of intelligence, by high IQ people. The definition is a work of art, because it takes a thing that appears complex, and makes it as simple as it can be made, but no more simple than that. Just two words!

The definition covers a vast array of things which we humans use our intelligence for – the mathematician sees pattern in numbers, the painter patterns in color/texture, the guy who ‘works a room’ sees patterns in emotion and behavior, the market outperformer sees patterns in charts or fundamentals, the musician sees patterns in pitch and rhythm. Most people say “intelligence can not be defined” and “there are many different types”, because they don’t see the common denominator – pattern recognition. A person can get an education without having been born with high pattern recognition ability. A person can achieve success without high pattern recognition ability thru effort, though the higher you go, the more high IQ people dominate every field. A person can have wisdom without having been born with high pattern recognition ability. Usually when people say “that person is a genius”, they mean success, education, or wisdom. Most people are of mean intelligence, and thus do not have pattern recognition skills to identify higher intelligence.

As a start, I’m just going to remind myself what our discussion revolved around… ah yes… what is meant by intelligence. Otherwise I’ve found that often a discussion goes off on tangents, equally important, but different to the original topic :smiley: Thus, in order that I don’t go offtopic…

So, I would still say that the ordinary use of the word signifies either “cognitive tricks” (non-profound thoughts that appear immediately impressive to a lay observer such as myself) or is inapproriately used as a synonym for “successful”. In my books, I find neither use to be consistent with my intuitive understanding of the word intelligent, which I’ll get to in a bit. That’s not to say that that ordinary use of the word is illegitimate for anyone else using it. If that’s what it means to them and they are happy to use it in that sense, good for them.

But, to get onto your understanding of the word. I don’t want to dispute the concept of “pattern recognition” as the real “idea” and “source” of intelligence. However, I do find its use here problematic. Firstly, your argument is simply a hypothesis (and there’s nothing wrong with that, it’s how we solve problems), rather than a solid or rigorous or known theory.

What is to say that the actors you have mentioned share a similar synaptic make-up in the brain that allows them to excel in their fields, which is the tapestry to which you have given the name “pattern recognition”. Because, if you think about your idea for a moment, that is essentially what your argument must fundamentally get to. As far as I know the field, and it isn’t very deeply, we don’t have a good knowledge of these things (although with the entry of big corporates into the field, such as Google and that London-based neuro outfit they bought, there might be more progress on this over the next decades).

So, you are implicitly staking the claim that the artist’s prowess in creating a pleasing painting is essentially due to the same brain wiring that allows a mathematician to solve the Poincare conjecture. This could indeed be so, but my point is simply that that is advancing a hypothesis that can, at best, guide further investigation. The way that you present the argument, it would tend to sound like a rigorous theory, when we are very far from that, and which would require a long time and great effort to approach.

Going even farther along the track, let’s say that there were indeed similarities in the brain across people that are generally recognized as successful in their field. Perhaps they have a high density of connections. And we thus conclude they are intelligent. And, so what? That artist that creates pleasant paintings – if his neuron density is an inevitable outcome of thousands of hours of painting, do we care? What is the real thing we are trying to uncover here?

As to my own understanding of the word, as I have mentioned previously, I take it to signify someone who is able to have insights into either the fundamental workings of physical or social systems that are entirely novel or, at worst but more commonly, not widely known or shared (I’m not talking like a handful of people here, but nonetheless a very modest proportion of the general population) but ultimately correct. Now, could this be due to some particular / prototypical wiring of the brain that, if I were to have a full dataset, I would see as much in Einstein as in Picasso? Perhaps. But who knows. It might turn out not to be so, and actually it wouldn’t matter from my take. They exhibit this ability for insight so to me they are “intelligent”. It might not be due to anything like “pattern recognition”, were that even to exist as some discrete, measurable and meaningful idea.

If you were to ask me who might fit the mould that I’m drawing here, I could mention someone like Chomsky, not only for his linguistic work (which is a fascinating field in itself) but also for his few insights into political and social structure. That is what interests me, because I am personally not too impressed by a “pattern recognition” if it takes the form of quickly recognizing patterns in stock charts in a manner that would inevitably be absorbed by anyone munching away at the same feed for long enough.

The interesting question for me is whether, for someone like a Chomsky (or Gauss, or Newton, or you name it), this outcome was predetermined due to some particular brain wiring coded in the genes or whether it was due to the fact that he was exposed to an intellectually stimulating environment from a young age, or something else entirely.

Also, slightly off-topic, and to nitpick, but in good faith – whenever I read an appeal to authority argument (" Pattern recognition is the most agreed upon definition of intelligence, by high IQ people") I am, I think understandably, always a bit sceptical about the quality of the arguments that are to follow. I think your hypothesis can be voiced without this garish flaw :slight_smile:

Umm, don’t overthink it or anything! :wink:

Well, the only people who are able to get the right answer are the high IQ people. What lower intelligence people think intelligence is, doesn’t matter. They just see lots of dots, no pattern.

If you want to trace it back to some source – that source is time (evolution). A larger cranial capacity, and the design of that, was driven by meat consumption, and the need for tools/communication to get the meat, starting 3M years ago. It is entirely genetic, as long as malnutrition does not prevent you from reaching your genetic potential. As far as defining some specific wiring in the genes or brain that make it so, that is way beyond our science.

So yes, it’s predetermined that Newton has high pattern recognition skills once the sperm meets the egg, and he breastfeeds, and he eats good food growing up, but after that it is not predetermined that he accomplishes something with that intelligence.

But don’t you see the circular logic in your argument – “What lower intelligence people think intelligence is, doesn’t matter.”

You are saying by direct implication – the intelligent people are intelligent so we take their definition of intelligence to be correct**.

So you are lending weight to their opinion because they are intelligent, but who or who isn’t intelligent is exactly what we’re trying to work out!

The rest of your comment I think is referring to the evolution of the human species, specifically the development of the brain in our species as a whole, which you ascribe to meat consumption (probably correctly). But I can’t immediately see how this relates to the distinction we implicitly make between “intelligent” and “not-so-intelligent” people. Aren’t you just stating an unrelated, although correct, fact?

As for Newton, again, this could be right (I said as much in my post, that I don’t know what the causes are), but it seems a bit presumptuous to say “So yes, it’s predetermined that Newton has high pattern recognition skills once the sperm meets the egg”. I mean, I like hearing hypotheses as much as the next incredibly hot girl in a micro bikini, but I kinda like them a bit modest and supported ya know?

Finally, at a higher level, I don’t see how the definition of intelligence as “pattern recognition” allows us to recognise such people. For example, we can do so if we define intelligence as cognitive tricks (quick poker odds), or high social status / wealth, or profound insights, but even if we were to assume that such a thing as “pattern matching” exists, how would that help me to discern who is intelligent? It seems you would again have to go back to looking at one of the above (cognitive tricks, status, insight, etc…) to do so but, then, we again come back to the starting question of whether cognitive tricks, or status, or ability to come up with insights, is the “right” and meaningful manifestation of intelligence.

** and I want to point out here that your assumption of what these people that you refer to as “high IQ people”, as a group, think of intelligence is pure speculation on your part. If I were to correspondingly speculate, I would venture that these people wouldn’t particularly latch on to the idea of “pattern recognition”.

Never bother to think when a good slogan can sum it up for you. That’s what I always say.

:smiley: :smiley:

And you know what, bchad, if I had to explain human behavior to martians in a few short words, this would probably be it !

I thought you always said to avoid platitudes like the plague?

Holy Snicker-Doodles: That’s a platitude! My world is crumbling.

Of course, people with high pattern recognition ability are the only ones who could see the pattern in what makes intelligence. People with low intelligence are not able to understand high intelligence, so there is no way they could analyze and define it.

No, I am not speculating. Just go to the high IQ forum and read the responses to the question “what is intelligence?”. “Pattern recognition” is the most common answer, and the higher the person’s IQ, the more probable it is that they give this answer. Because it is the best possible answer!

Well, evolution relates to what makes individuals intelligent or not, because if your ancestors were intelligent, there is a much higher probability of you being intelligent. The fact that lower intelligence people are making more babies, is dragging down mean intelligence. Evolution got us here, and it’s still happening.

I’ll keep this brief given that I don’t think there’s evidently anything further to be gained.

You made a claim, I contested that claim on the basis of circular logic, you simply restated your claim without either conceding or disputing it. Not sure therefore that there’s any further point in pointing out that the logic that “intelligent people can tell us what is intelligence because they are intelligent” is not helpful in our dialectic.

“the higher the person’s IQ, the more probable it is that they give this answer.” – Like, I’m totally at a loss as to how to respond when I hear pearls like this. My ancient history teacher used to repeatedly prod my assignments with comments of “sweeping generalization” and “speculation”, yet I eventually learnt my lesson before school was out. I started being a bit more rigorous and modest in my argumentation. I’ve never looked back :slight_smile:

As for your evolution tangent, and I say this strictly for your benefit rather than it being in any way of interest to me, but don’t you think that if what you said above were true then we would’ve seen a prounounced and increasing bifurcation between “intelligent” and “non-intelligent” humans? Yet, our “IQs”, for the sake of an easy yardstick, are still closely clustered around the centre? It sounds like you have reached that point in the development cycle of being enamoured with a type of rudimentary social-darwinian theory. By the bye, I’ve always wondered whether Dolfie reconsidered his romance with the same, as Soviet troops poured through the Brandenburg gate.

Thanks for the input, I’m going to bow out of this one now.

Naw, I don’t make “claims” or “arguments”. I just know a lot about this topic, and worked in the “intelligence biz” for years, so I’m explaining how it works. You don’t have to get so testy about it.

It may appear there are many choices in life, many different opinions, and many different answers. But the higher the IQ, the more wrong answers fall away, and the more one best answer remains.

This is sometimes called “great minds think alike”.

Well, you asked the question so I gave you the answer, the answer isn’t the one you want to hear, so it’s not of interest to you. But it’s still the correct answer to the question “where does intelligence come from?”. From mommy and daddy of course!

Yes, of course there is bifurcation, see the upper class vs the lower class. The lower class have lower avg IQ and thus make more babies (accidentally), while the upper class have higher avg IQ (can plan) and thus have less babies. In total avg human IQ gets pulled down. This exists simultaneously with the IQ of the total population being clustered around the mean, of course. Also, there is no wall which prevents a penis from one IQ class from going into a vagina of another IQ class. It happens daily. LOL, this is too fun. Please come back and play!

Have you heard the story about the pigeon and the chess board?

In any case, our positions are there, readers will judge them for what they are and whose positions have more substance.

Incidentally, having worked with a number of Korean nationals throughout my banking career, I do have to say that you all appear to come across as remarkably similar. I thought they were “one-offs”.

Oh, an excellent, and embarrassing, example of pattern recognition kids!

The problem with human intelligence, is that it not only connects patterns that exist (as I have done), but also sees false patterns. For example, you connected a pattern between my posting style and my location, yet I am not a Korean national. Perhaps you have made other mistakes in your thinking and should retrace your steps?

Also when you say “appear” and “come across” you are saying the same thing twice.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WtNHuqHWefU

You two should get a room.

I clicked on this with the full expectation of seeing Rick Astley.

PA will watching Brain Games make me smarter?

having 70% of the people above average (mean) is actually not a mathematical impossibility if you have a small number of discrete outcomes or if your distribution is highly skewed.

Actually, having 99.999% of people above the average is not a mathematical possibility if the only outcomes are binary.

EG - How many feet does the average person have? You might answer “Two”, but you would be wrong. Some people have only one foot. Some people have none. So the “average person” has only 1.9999 feet.

So I suspect that everybody who regularly posts in the Water Cooler is above average, at least in this respect.

Actually, it’s quite possible:

Take a distribution of ones and zeros. There are 999,999 ones and 1 zero.

The average is 0.000001, and 99.9999% of the observations are above average.