Is it me but do I detect some cynicsm on this post. Lots of sour grapes IMO. Hate the state the obvious but the job market owes none of us anything. If you can not get a job you like or want than re-invent yourself and do something else. Education (or more of it) is not always the answer. Get out of the academia bubble and get into the real world people. I learned more on the street than I ever did in the CFA or undergrad. Trying getting into sales (God forbid) and learn how to interact with people, the one key skill lacking with most analysts these days and which is not taught in school or the CFA. Who knows maybe a 40 year old IT guy that knows how to talk to people, sell his ideas and the get most out of others(what a concept) might be what the industry needs. God knows we don’t need more number crunching analysts that got us into this mess in the first place. The thing I hate about this industry is the cockiness of some and the infallibility of others. Total crap IMO. Check your ego at the door. This industry needs more critical thinkers out there and I don’t know how you get that without “life” experience mixed with smarts. The ultimate goal is to try to add value to a team. If you can find that wedge then you may add more value to a team than you even know Wally23, if you can convince someone that you can add value to the team, then go for it. Don’t let these guys push you around. Don’t know about Kentucky though. Become an FA otherwise. The good ones make more money than most analysts anyways and with more job security. Just throwing it out there.
This is quoted out of the Globe and Mail today. Mr. Jobs has hired more than 5,000 people in his time, assembling an all-star team at Apple HQ, including the likes of Jonathan Ive, the company’s brilliant lead industrial designer. Mr. Jobs, in a February, 2008, interview with Fortune magazine while on holiday in Hawaii, said the key to hires is that they love the company, devote themselves to it – but he also noted that hiring is art, not science. “In the end, it’s ultimately based on your gut,” Mr. Jobs said. And the man does believe in collaboration. “When a good idea comes,” he told Fortune, “part of my job is to move it around, just see what different people think, get people talking about it, argue with people about it … and, you know, just explore things.” If Steve Jobs thinks hiring is an art who is to say others aren’t thinking the same these days in finance. Like I said we need critical thinkers and maybe a 40 year old IT guy is one of them.
^ And what exactly is your background darlia? Which angle are you speaking from? Because looking at this thread, there are quite a few experienced finance people here that are saying his odds are not good. And your reply suggests you have not seriously worked in this industry at all. Your quoted paragraph is also meaningless, because people obviously look for people that "love the company, devote themselves to it ". Havn’t you seen the words: passion for financial markets in nearly all the job listings? So again, experienced with passion ? or 0 experience with passion? Because there are a ton of fresh youngsters from top schools with the latter, and firms would much rather hire them.
darlia Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Is it me but do I detect some cynicsm on this > post. Lots of sour grapes IMO. > > Hate the state the obvious but the job market owes > none of us anything. If you can not get a job you > like or want than re-invent yourself and do > something else. Education (or more of it) is not > always the answer. Get out of the academia bubble > and get into the real world people. I learned more > on the street than I ever did in the CFA or > undergrad. Trying getting into sales (God forbid) > and learn how to interact with people, the one key > skill lacking with most analysts these days and > which is not taught in school or the CFA. > > Who knows maybe a 40 year old IT guy that knows > how to talk to people, sell his ideas and the get > most out of others(what a concept) might be what > the industry needs. God knows we don’t need more > number crunching analysts that got us into this > mess in the first place. The thing I hate about > this industry is the cockiness of some and the > infallibility of others. Total crap IMO. Check > your ego at the door. This industry needs more > critical thinkers out there and I don’t know how > you get that without “life” experience mixed with > smarts. The ultimate goal is to try to add value > to a team. If you can find that wedge then you may > add more value to a team than you even know > > Wally23, if you can convince someone that you can > add value to the team, then go for it. Don’t let > these guys push you around. Don’t know about > Kentucky though. Become an FA otherwise. The good > ones make more money than most analysts anyways > and with more job security. > > Just throwing it out there. No sour grapes, at least not with me. Just pointing out the obvious that the odds are very low especially in Kentucky. The odds of being a good earner as an FA are equally bad and I would only consider that job only marginally attached to equity research, which was stated as an area of interest. Not being a hater or trying to crush anyone’s dreams. On another note, I just think people throw out FA, so much without realising what that position is all about - sales. In general, people refer to the top 10% of FA’s (those making analyst money) as the rule, rather than the exception. I know plenty of great ones, some you’ll see frequently on CNBC, and most of them in moments of introspection will admit to how lucky they are and how many colleagues dropped out along the way.
darlia Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > This is quoted out of the Globe and Mail today. > > Mr. Jobs has hired more than 5,000 people in his > time, assembling an all-star team at Apple HQ, > including the likes of Jonathan Ive, the company’s > brilliant lead industrial designer. Mr. Jobs, in a > February, 2008, interview with Fortune magazine > while on holiday in Hawaii, said the key to hires > is that they love the company, devote themselves > to it – but he also noted that hiring is art, not > science. “In the end, it’s ultimately based on > your gut,” Mr. Jobs said. And the man does believe > in collaboration. “When a good idea comes,” he > told Fortune, “part of my job is to move it > around, just see what different people think, get > people talking about it, argue with people about > it … and, you know, just explore things.” > > > If Steve Jobs thinks hiring is an art who is to > say others aren’t thinking the same these days in > finance. Like I said we need critical thinkers and > maybe a 40 year old IT guy is one of them. That’s all great, but I don’t think that’s going to get his resume in front of people. In this market, with the number of applicants you’re lucky if they spend 2 minutes reviewing your resume. The key is networking and I am pretty sure that Kentucky isn’t a hotbed in that regard.
Here’s a dose of reality: 2 minutes reviewing a resume is WAY too high. 30 seconds to 1 minute is more like it. And at the big names like Goldman or Morgan Stanley, which get thousands of applications per job listing, they use computer screeners to filter people out. So with 0 experience, the computer has already cut you before a human even gets a chance to look at it. You really think a MD or senior analyst is going to pore through a thousand resumes spending 2 minutes each? Not a chance. HR will sort through the huge piles of resumes first, and those resumes deemed worthy for the team to review get sent to them, there it gets sliced even more to decide who gets the interview. You think HR is going to look at a 40 year old - 15 yrs in IT for some restaurant and think “hmm… this guy could have good potential, it says here he is passionate, even though he has 0 finance experience” ? HR is going to look for people directly related to what they are looking for. So unless you know a guy directly in the team that can make the hire/no-hire decision to get you in, stop dreaming. There’s almost no chance.
Johnnyboyasu Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > and you gotta move to the big cities if you want > to pursue a successful job in the finance world > > NYC and SF > > End of story I think this is terrible advice. I doubt there’s any place on earth right now with a higher ratio of unemployed financial analysts to financial analyst job openings than NYC.
Eh… I don’t think any city is particularly great for financial service workers right now… But anyway, I still think the most accurate thing to say is “don’t be a 40-year-old IT technician with no finance experience”.
I have gone thru the entire post and so far no one has ask the following. how long have you been really passionate about investing? Lots of people like investing but doing it as a hobbiest vs professional is totally different; just like being a professional chef vs enjoy cooking is different. have you tracked a group of stocks? any value investor you follow? if you really want it in a professional way, have you build models, research reports, reading Ks and Qs and send your ideas to any decent fund managers close to your area and you never know…what you got to loose? If you thinking sellside, are you ready to committ to the time required to be away from your family, long hours…etc. buyside is better but still more demanding than most of corporate jobs most people are used to. the flip side to the buy side is there isn’t really an ON/OFF switch in your job in portfolio management or just like any other jobs with serious responsibility invovled… Age is not a huge factor; if i remember correctly, Marty whitman who runs the Third ave Funds family didn’t really start till well past your current age. Every good money manager you interview with will dig deep into your motives…so you might as well do some serious sould searching now? why this business, why now? Just because you feel bored with your current career path isn’t going to cut it.
My point exactly DDL24. Is it a long shot? Yes. But if he can demonstrate value and crack the HR fortress who are you to tell him to not even try.
^ this is exactly why people do the CFA exams, in the hopes it will “demonstrate value and crack the HR fortress” and land them the job. In reality, if your chance of success was 1%, passing L1 may have boosted you to 2%. Did you double your chances? sure. Still horribly slim? yes. Should someone bet on passing a CFA exam to lock in the job? heck no.
Hi Wally i am in same situation as you , i am 37, my hobby is investment i was in sales lines for 13 yr, started as salesman & climbed up to be manager before i quit my job early this year ( after frustrated & feel bored with the job ). I dedicated 3 months for CFA level 2 june exam, & fortunally i passed during that 3-4 jobless months, i looked for invesment jobs as my first priority & sales as secondary,i dont get any response from any finance firm, but i got few calls for sales job due to my sales expereince in the industry, i was soon given the offer. & now i am back to my old territory again with better remuneration i am still not decided whether want to sign up level 3 June 12…, as it might not help in current job, & it really need time commitment, but on the other hand i feel such a waste if i not continue… ( can someone share his thought ? ) am i still able to change my career ? i am still doing my soul searching, probablycan be a sales for investment/financial product as someone suggested?
don’t listen to nay sayers, you can do it.
Wally - i’d recommend if you want to switch to finance, try to aim for a either a quant or IT role within a bank or brokerage house. That will get your foot in the door, and allow them to consider your experience in applying your skills to your new role. After you’ve been there a year or so and get a feel for the industry, consider moving to a different kind of position if that’s what you want.
faraz70s Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > don’t listen to nay sayers, you can do it. It’s awesome how you say “you can do it” then him no advice or tips what-so-ever. I can do it to. watch this: “you can do it. take out all your money, go to vegas, bet it all on Red 26”
I’d like to get to know you well.
faraz70s Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > don’t listen to nay sayers, you can do it. Wally didn’t ask for empty encouragement, he asked for honest opinions. Hence, all of the naysayers. 2011 just isn’t a good year to be trying to break into finance.
There is a lot that goes into investment analysis beyond the textbooks of CFA Institute. If it was as easy as they make it out to be, everyone would be doing it and doing it well. Learning a comprehensive approach to conducting due diligence, learning how to model in Excel, and other areas not covered by CFA are important in investment analysis. CFA is like a mediocre base of knowledge that could make you useful on the investment side. Doesn’t mean you are, by any means. My advice would be to find an important industry/sub-sector and latch onto it. Create your own niche of investment analysis and hopefully a firm will recognize your value in this area. If you know everything forwards and backwards about the solar panel companies and XYZ firm needs help in equity research on solar panels, at least you have a CFA and you understand the industry. You can make your own mock reports on a company to show written comprehension. Slowly it will become 1 or 2 less things that a firm needs to teach you upon hiring. And aim for smaller firms where wearing multiple hats and being a generalist is more valued. You’ll never get into a shop like Fidelity on day 1.
I am in total agreement with everyone on the scarcity of jobs right now. Things are going to get alot worse too. I have been applying for analyst jobs for 3 years (and with some stellar inside connections I might add) and haven’t gotten even relatively close to clinching it anywhere. Through a very lucky/random series of events I got a phone interview with the lead analyst for the sector I was applying for at my firm two weeks ago. The job is an entry level, intensive time commitment, sell side grind house position and it was no surprise to hear the level of experience of many of the candidates he was looking at for this position. He said he had 40 resumes left sitting on his desk that he wasn’t even going to look at due to time. The fact that I had taken level 3 of the CFA was not a big selling point for him (even though he of course had both CFA & MBA). He cared about one thing: my excel earnings models and depth of industry knowledge. Prior academic achievements were not at all considered. Wally, do you have any programming skills in any modern languages? You should consider a 1 year quant finance masters (the hire and salary rates for many of these programs are very good compared to fundamental financial analysis right now, you will need to know a ton of math though), or applying for programing/IT jobs at investment firms. There are 30 or 40 times more IT openings than investment management at most big firms. I am also considering the FA track right now unfortunately, I’m also taking the GMAT, and still applying and networking for everything I can. Everyone is right on this thread about the FA track. With 3-4 years experience in Retail, I know how many people make it and don’t in that business as well as how hard it is to get started (insanely difficult). The good one’s make so much $ and have such a sweet schedule going that people only choose to see that as the typical outcome in Retail. One term: survivorship bias
montanidate Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > I am in total agreement with everyone on the > scarcity of jobs right now. Things are going to > get alot worse too. I have been applying for > analyst jobs for 3 years (and with some stellar > inside connections I might add) and haven’t gotten > even relatively close to clinching it anywhere. > > Through a very lucky/random series of events I got > a phone interview with the lead analyst for the > sector I was applying for at my firm two weeks > ago. The job is an entry level, intensive time > commitment, sell side grind house position and it > was no surprise to hear the level of experience of > many of the candidates he was looking at for this > position. He said he had 40 resumes left sitting > on his desk that he wasn’t even going to look at > due to time. The fact that I had taken level 3 of > the CFA was not a big selling point for him (even > though he of course had both CFA & MBA). He cared > about one thing: my excel earnings models and > depth of industry knowledge. Prior academic > achievements were not at all considered. > > Wally, do you have any programming skills in any > modern languages? You should consider a 1 year > quant finance masters (the hire and salary rates > for many of these programs are very good compared > to fundamental financial analysis right now, you > will need to know a ton of math though), or > applying for programing/IT jobs at investment > firms. There are 30 or 40 times more IT openings > than investment management at most big firms. > > I am also considering the FA track right now > unfortunately, I’m also taking the GMAT, and still > applying and networking for everything I can. > Everyone is right on this thread about the FA > track. With 3-4 years experience in Retail, I > know how many people make it and don’t in that > business as well as how hard it is to get started > (insanely difficult). The good one’s make so much > $ and have such a sweet schedule going that people > only choose to see that as the typical outcome in > Retail. One term: survivorship bias +1