^^^Yeah, thermobaric bonds:
lol…dude you can’t say something so obviously one sided and reply to a flippant comment with some facts.
sure america played a important role, among the most important but “back to back world war champs”. really?
it was the russians on the frontlines, it was when hitler turned east that the tide turned, it was russia that was the first nation to survive blitzkreig, it was the russians who refused to give up, it was the russians who held ground in stalingard in street fights and it was them that finally pushed back to berlin.
asia was a curious case, japan overran so many countries because they were ill- prepared. Once they had been held in the jungles of burma they were perhaps fighting on too many fronts. the chinese were holding their ground, the brit indian army was vast and trained , they had created a beast when they started to promote indonesian nationalism and train their soldiers.
There were far too many players, too many sub-stories and you can make some stupid badges and shirts and write the books from your point of view but everyone knows the score.
and what do you mean “no it wasn’t”. obviously i was exaggerating but they provided a lot of manpower and in some places skill
fun quote for the day-
“…British people are highly indebted and obliged to Sikhs for a long time. I know that within this century we needed their help twice and they did help us very well. As a result of their timely help, we are today able to live with honour, dignity, and independence. In the war, they fought and died for us, wearing the turbans.” -Winston churchill
Yep, but we supplied literally everyone you just listed with their munitions and much of their equipment. And like I said, we dominated in African, Western, and Japenese fronts. Russians just happened to hold the East nicely after THEY INITIALLY SIDED WITH GERMANY AT THE BEGINNING OF WWII until they realized the ass whooping we were gonna bring. Not to mention your ongoing wilful disregard for the first WW. Your statement was that Indians were most of the British Army. Now Churchill just says, “you guys helped” and somehow that’s your factual backup?
Back to Back World War Champs!
Some things haven’t change then…
US and (the UK to an extent) will supply arms to anyone willing to pay or serve American / British ‘overseas interests’.
Here is a more comprehensive list over the years…
Dictators Supported by the US
Africa MOBUTU SESE SEKO Dictator of Zaire 1965-1997 MOHAMMED SIAD BARRE President/Dictator of Somalia 1969-1991 GEN. IBRAHIM BABANGIDA Military Dictator/President of Nigeria 1985-1993 GEN. SANI ABACHA Dictator of Nigeria 1993-1998 HASTINGS KAMUZU BANDA Dictator of Malawi 1966-1994 LAURENT-DÉSIRÉ KABILA President/Dictator of the Democratic Republic of the Congo 1997-2001 GNASSINGBE ETIENNE EYADEMA Dictator of Togo 1967-2005 FELIX HOUPHOUET-BOIGNY Dictator/President of the Ivory Coast 1960-1993 HASSAN II King of Morocco 1961-1999 TEODORO OBIANG NGUEMA MBASOGO President/Dictator of Equatorial Guinea 1979-present ZINE EL ABIDINE BEN ALI President-Prime Minister/Dictator of Tunisia 1987-2011 ANWAR EL-SADAT President/Dictator of Egypt 1970-1981 HOSNI MUBARAK President/Dictator of Egypt 1981-present IAN SMITH Prime Minister of Rhodesia (white minority regime) 1965-1979 PIETER WILLEM BOTHA Prime Minister of South Africa (white minority regime) 1978-1984, President 1984-1989 DANIEL ARAP MOI President/Dictator of Kenya 1978-2002 HAILE SELASSIE (RAS TAFARI) Emperor of Ethiopia 1928-1974 WILLIAM J. S. TUBMAN President/Dictator of Liberia 1944-1971 SAMUEL KANYON DOE Dictator of Liberia 1980-1990
Asia MOHAMED SUHARTO Dictator of Indonesia 1966-1998 NGO DINH DIEM President/Dictator of South Vietnam 1955-1963 GEN. NGUYEN KHANH Dictator of South Vietnam 1964-1965 NGUYEN CAO KY Dictator of South Vietnam 1965-1967 GEN. NGUYEN VAN THIEU President/Dictator of South Vietnam 1967-1975 TRAN THIEM KHIEM Prime Minister of South Vietnam 1969-75 BAO DAI Emperor of Vietnam 1926-1945, chief of state 1949-1955 LEE KUAN YEW Prime Minister/Dictator of Singapore 1959-1990; behind-the scenes ruler since then. EMOMALI RAHMONOV President/Dictator of Tajikistan 1992-present NURSULTAN NAZARBAYEV President of Kazakhstan 1990-present ISLAM A. KARIMOV President/Dictator of Uzbekistan 1990-present SAPARMURAD ATAYEVICH NIYAZOV President/Dictator of Turkmenistan 1990-2006 MARSHAL LUANG PIBUL SONGGRAM Dictator of Thailand 1948-1957 FIELD MARSHAL THANOM KITTIKACHORN Prime Minister/Dictator of Thailand 1957-58, 1963-1973 CHIANG KAI-SHEK President/Dictator (Nationalist) of China 1928-1949 President/Dictator of Taiwan 1949-1975 CHIANG CHING-KUO President/Dicator of Taiwan 1978-1988; Prime Minister 1972-1978 DENG XIAOPING De facto ruler of China from circa 1978 to the early 1990s FERDINAND MARCOS President/Dictator of the Philippines 1965-1986 SYNGMAN RHEE President/Dictator of South Korea 1948-1960 GEN. PARK CHUNG HEE President/Dictator of South Korea 1962-1979 GEN. CHUN DOO HWAN President/Dictator of South Korea 1980-1988 SIR MUDA HASSANAL BOLKIAH Sultan of Brunei 1967-present GEN. LON NOL Prime Minister/Dictator of Cambodia 1970-1975 POL POT Dictator of Cambodia 1975-1979 MAJ. GEN. SITIVENI RABUKA Dictator of Fiji 1987-1999 ASKAR AKAYEV President of Kyrgyzstan 10/27/1990-2005
Europe FRANCISCO FRANCO Dictator of Spain 1939-1975 ANTONIO SALAZAR DE OLIVEIRA Dictator of Portugal 1928-1968 COL. GEORGIOS PAPADOPOULOS Prime Minister/President/Dictator of Greece 1967-1973
Latin America ANASTASIO SOMOZA GARCIA Dictator of Nicaragua 1937-1947, 1950-1956 ANASTASIO “TACHITO” SOMOZA DEBAYLE Dictator of Nicaragua 1967-1972, 1974-1979 MANUEL ESTRADA CABRERA Dictator of Guatemala 1898-1920 GEN. JORGE UBICO CASTANEDA Dictator of Guatemala 1931-1944 COL. CARLOS ENRIQUE CASTILLO ARMAS Dictator of Guatemala 1954-1957 GEN. JOSE MIGUEL YDIGORAS FUENTES President/Dictator of Guatemala 1958-1963 COL. ENRIQUE PERALTA AZURDIA Military Junta, Guatemala 1963-1966 COL.CARLOS ARANA OSORIO Dictator of Guatemala 1970-1974 GEN. FERNANDO ROMEO LUCAS GARCIA Dictator of Guatemala 1978-1982 GEN. JOSE EFRAIN RIOS MONTT Dictator of Guatemala 1982-1983 MARCO VINICIO CEREZO ARÉVALO President/Dictator of Guatemala 1986-1991 MAXIMILIANO HERNANDEZ MARTINEZ Dictator of El Salvador 1931-1944 COL. OSMIN AGUIRRE Y SALINAS Dictator of El Salvador 1944-1945 CIVILIAN-MILITARY JUNTA, EL SALVADOR 1961-1962 COL. ARTURO ARMANDO MOLINA BARRAZA Dictator of El Salvador 1972-1977 JUNTA, EL SALVADOR 1979-1982 ALFREDO FÉLIX CRISTIANI BUKARD President/Dictator of El Salvador 1989-1994 TIBURCIO CARIAS ANDINO Dictator of Honduras 1932-1948 COL. OSWALDO LOPEZ ARELLANO Dictator of Honduras 1963-1975 ROBERTO SUAZO CORDOVA President/Dictator of Honduras 1982-1986 GEN. OMAR HERRERA-TORRIJOS Dictator of Panama 1969-1981 GEN. MANUEL ANTONIO MORENA NORIEGA Dictator of Panama 1982-1989 AUGUSTO PINOCHET UGARTE Dictator of Chile 1973-1990 GEN. JORGE RAFAEL VIDELA Dictator of Argentina 1976-1981 COL. MARCOS PEREZ JIMENEZ Dictator of Venezuela 1950-1958 GEN. ALFREDO STROESSNER Dictator of Paraguay 1954-1989 ALBERTO FUJIMORI Dictator of Peru 1990-2000 FRANCOIS “PAPA DOC” DUVALIER Dictator of Haiti 1957-1971 JEAN-CLAUDE “BABY DOC” DUVALIER Dictator of Haiti 1971-1986 MILITARY JUNTA / LT. GEN. RAOUL CEDRAS, GEN. PHILIPPE BIAMBY and LT. COL. MICHEL-JOSEPH FRANCO Haiti 1991-1994 GEN. RENE BARRIENTOS ORTUNO President/Dictator of Bolivia 1964-1969 GEN. HUGO BANZER SUAREZ Dictator of Bolivia 1971-1978 DR. GETULIO VARGAS Dictator of Brazil 1930-1945, 1951-1954 GEN. HUMBERTO DE ALENCAR CASTELLO BRANCO Dictator of Brazil 1964-1967 CARLOS PRIO SOCARRAS Dictator of Cuba 1948-1952 FULGENCIO BATISTA Dictator of Cuba 1933-44, 1952-1959 GERARDO MACHADO MORALES Dictator of Cuba 1925-1933 RAFAEL LEONIDAS TRUJILLO Dictator of the Dominican Republic 1930-1961
Middle East MOHAMMED REZA PAHLAVI Shah of Iran 1941-1979 SADDAM HUSSEIN Dictator of Iraq 1969 (1979)-2003 GEN. MOHAMMED AYUB KHAN President/Dictator of Pakistan 1958-1969 GEN. AGHA MUHAMMAD YAHYA KHAN President/Dictator of Pakistan 1969-1971 GEN. MOHAMMAD ZIA UL-HAQ President/Dictator of Pakistan 1977-1988 PERVEZ MUSHARRAF Dictator of Pakistan 1999-2008 ABDUL IBN HUSSEIN I King of Jordan 1952-1999 TURGUT ÖZAL Prime Minister of Turkey 1983-1989, President 1989-1993 SHEIK JABIR AL-AHMAD AL SABAH Emir of Kuwait 1977-2006 Prime Minister of Kuwait 1962-1963, 1965-1978 FAHD IBN ABDUL-AZIZ AL SAUD King and Prime Minister of Saudi Arabia 1982-2005
^ You’re right, we totally shouldn’t have supplied arms to the allies. Blah blah blah.
I saw W speak recently (he did a great job btw) and he specifically mentioned this “support” of dictators. Essentially, he said before 9/11 it was U.S. policy to support dictators so long as they represented our interests. Didn’t matter if they were supressing their people.
After 9/11 that changed. They recognized supporting dictators was a tenuous position at best. They might support our interests today, but who knows about tomorrow. That’s when they embarked on the Bush Doctrine to spread democracy with the theory being a large number of people will choose peace over war. It’s only when you get a few crazies in power that you get serious conflict. (I might be paraphrasing a bit.)
On a side note, ex-presidents look so relaxed. I haven’t seen Clinton in person, but you can tell it’s the same with him as well. They’re just so chill. I guess having the most stressfull job in the world for eight years will do that to you.
^^^ Dictators are usually pretty good for US interests. The Soviets/Russians have supported every POS dictator that helped serve their interests, so what’s your point?
I think a lot of this stuff sounds good in theory. It’s just that the implementation might have bad results. I can understand why GW would want to depose Saddam Hussein, for instance. However, GW clearly did not understand that the Iraq war would end up costing upwards of $1 trillion.
Yeah, some people really hate W. I don’t. I realize (and I think he does too) that he made a bad judgement call. But I never doubted he meant well and had difficult decisions to make.
But yep, when you look at the dumb things that politiicans say, I always empathize. When they’re compaining for President, those guys are on the road 24/7, talking and strategizing 100+ hours a week and trying to appear presentable. I’m sure it wears on them and the stress can make you snappier, mentally sluggish, or just prone to mispeaking or blurting out dumb crap for sure. It’s gotta be harder than it looks. Just look at before and after pics of double term presidents to see how much they age.
No, that was just a quote. Factual backup is 2.5 million dead. For a nation not involved that is a crazy amount. Price of independence i guess. Like i said,write the books we all know the score. I dont deny america played a important role,kudos to you but “back to back”…lame
2.5M dead or 2.5M dead soldiers? “Factual backup” is ~60-80 thousand Indian army casualties with only a small portion of the Indian army at the time ever even bothering to join in combat. If you’re counting civilians (which you are), that doesn’t really speak to any significant willfull contribution. Not to mention that a portion of your army broke off and fought for the Axis.
Yeah, the ignorance for Russia’s (and China’s) sacrifices is pretty ridiculous. But ah that Winston Churchill…
No im not…2.5 million soldiers…i know all about subash Dont want to divert the thread to another indian one. Again america did well,lots of credit but its pretty ignorant to make a statement like that
No doubt that the Russians (and also Chinese) had to endure staggering losses, and their ability to come back from that and take back the eastern front and go all the way to Berlin was an amazing feat, worthy of respect, and often underappreciated by the Western Allies (though I think it actually is appreciated more than Russians think it is, even if not quite enough).
That doesn’t change the fact that the US was a critical supplier of materiel and - at the end of the war - one of the chief victors. And it’s also not at all clear that if Britain and the US had sued for peace, that the western and southern Axis divisions wouldn’t have been better at holding the line against the Soviets, or that Germany wouldn’t have done better if it weren’t so obsessed with exterminating Jews that they diverted substantial war resources to accomplishing that task. From a Realpolitik point of view, letting the Nazis and the Soviets slog it out between each other so that the Western Allies could swoop in at the end in strong shape for winning the Peace is good strategy, even if one can understand why the Soviets thought it was a dirty trick - but they ended up controlling Eastern Europe and nearly half of Germany anyway, which of course was great fun everyone involved.
And if one is going to say that the Soviets were critical factors in the fight against Japan (I’m not so sure that they were that much of a determining factor, but that’s up for debate), then it’s completely hypocrital to say that the Allied invasion of Normandy and the Western Front was immaterial to Germany, because there is no doubt that the Allied invasion of the west was more relevant to Germany’s surrender than Soviet advances were against Japan.
Isildurrr, maybe you’re bad at reading, but there were 2.5 million soldiers in the indian army, not 2.5 million dead.; There were only 60-80 thousand Indian casualties (includes injuries) in WWII. So show me your source.
My reading is fine thank you very much. I made a mistake my bad,got a lot on my mind but 2.5 million died total including civilians you’re right. I think i replied to this because you said “like india can talk” which is lame because most of them died cause churchill followed a scorched earth policy to prevent japan from capturing the fertile land of bengal. Like i said again too many players,too many stories to say world war champs. Russia deserves equal credit
No one said American efforts were “immaterial”, point is, a lot of these Russian efforts are simply ignored. I just cited as an example Japan, where the narrative of the A-bomb is “US dropped the bomb so that lives would be saved, compared to a full on invasion”, while totally ignoring the fact that the atomic bomb was a strategic decision to force a surrender to specifically the US, and not an effort to “save lives”. Truman needed to act fast as Russia could have ended Japan’s campaign!
This is flatly untrue on every possible level. The Bush Doctrine to “spread democracy” was conceived prior to 9/11 and was the extension of long term US policy towards Iraq of regime change and crushing economic sanctions which was also the policy of the Clinton administration.
Even after 9/11, we see little change in “supporting dictators”, if anything, support increased as US needed vital “secular” allies to crush Islamic extremism.
From time to time we’ve seen lapses in this policy, such as the occaision of withdrawing support to the Shah before the Iranian Revolution, and Obama’s withdrawing of support to Mubarak, but these are just momentary blips.
I’m ambivalent on supporting dictators, but I would prefer if we reduce security commitments in many regions.
I love how these threads stay on topic.
Well, there’s a saying in India. I don’t know if it’s in India, but it’s in the US. It goes, “Fool me once, shame on…you.”
Now watch this drive.