Libertarianism vs reality

OP, you are totally ignorant.

What state has the most gun murders? Cali

And guess which state has the strictest gun laws? Cali

Ok, let’s take it a step further. Which area has the greatest gun murders per 100,00 people? D.C. 12 gun murders per 100,000

D.C. also has some of the strictest gun laws in the nation. And yet again, the gun murder rate remains the highest in the US

Texas (guns friendly state) 699 total gun murders in 2011 — nearly half that of California — and a firearms murder rate of 2.91 per 100,000.

Utah, (arguably with the least gun control), experienced just 26 gun murders and a firearms murder rate of 0.97 per 100,000

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2013/05/06/the-firearms-statistics-that-gun-control-advocates-dont-want-to-see/

The only reason why people are so anti-guns is because the media hypes up and magnifies every gun-related-tragedy that occurs, even though on the grand scheme of numbers, they are absolutely nothing compared to the biggest killers out there. Oh, and notice how the media almost never reports the stories how people saved their own lives by having guns

^Word. And in a few years, we’ll have some statistics that show the difference between Colorado/Washington and the rest of the US. That is, whether decriminalization of drugs leads to higher crime rates. If we look at other countries, we might have some statistics now.

That’s a depressing way of viewing things. Your vote does matter. If you don’t like one of the two major party candidates then vote for a third party. Voting for the libertarian candidate would provide the most bang for your buck anyway as every additional vote they get validates the party.

BS - You’re for gay marriage and gun rights? Vote libertarian. That’s as close as you’ll ever get.

Or, and this goes for all non-voters, wait until your rights get taken away from you and complain about it while doing nothing to stop it.

You have your strategy, I have mine. I don’t tell you who to vote for, and I ultimately could give less than 1 sh*t about what you think.

All evidence to the contrary. You’re the most over-sensitive person on this board. No reason to be so defensive (about every single thing). I’m pointing out you have other options with your vote and not voting is a great way to be sure you’re opinions won’t be heard. Frankly I don’t care if you vote. Just don’t throw a fit when your toys are taken away from you.

Not voting is one way to not be heard. Voting is another way to ensure that you’re marginalized.

If you don’t vote to support people that want to push the system in the directions you favor (or mostly favor, given that no candidate realistically lines up with 100% of your views on everything), then that’s your choice, but don’t be surprised if others don’t take your political committments or viewpoints very seriously.

Voting doesn’t guarantee you’ll win, and your viewpoint does get mixed in with millions of other votes, of course, but it’s a bit like someone unemployed who complains that there is no work, but never bothers to apply for other jobs. You can agree that the environment sucks, and you can even empathize with their frustration, but it’s hard to respect their approach to their predicament.

And for the record, I don’t think that the bigger the government is, the better. But I do feel the need to push back on the idea that a government that just pays for an army and enforces contracts is the perfect size. There are plenty of market failures where some mechanism other than “whoever has the deepest pockets decides the outcome” needs to govern.

An economy where everything is controlled by a few oligopolists isn’t really that much freer than an economy wehre the state owns everything. Environmental problems are market failures; plenty of markets involve vast information inequities between buyer and seller that thwart the good things about the invisible hand.

The state does have a big problem, which is that (except over the very long term - like decades and centuries), it doesn’t have a disciplining mechanism like the market to eliminate inefficiencies. The closest we have come to something like that is to create mechanisms of democratic control over the state, so that leaders can’t abuse their power with complete impunity. These mechanisms can get corrupted, and that is a big problem.

To some extent, shrinking the state potentially shrinks the powers that can be used corruptly, but the devolution of power can also be corrupt (i.e. when the state devolves its powers in such a way that it favors the interests and friends of those who are currently in power). And the absence of the state also creates opportunities for other forms of corruption or coercion.

Where the line is is always a matter of debate and where our areas of agreement lie, which is why an informed public, and regular electoral activity is important. Not only does it force leaders to be somewhat accountable to the people they govern, it also forces people to think about their positions.

The concentration of wealth over the past 40 years plus the changing media landscape does appear to have made our more classical methods of democratic accountability and governing less effective. Concentration of wealth has made government more “purchaseable,” so that people can run on one platform and then turn around and govern on another (to some extent, this always happened, but seems to have increased).

The internet and media diversity seems to have permitted more and more people to sit in their own echo-chambers rather than engage in a real debate. It’s a tempting draw in an uncertain world - we can get (justifiably) scared about what the future is going to be like for us, and we then find comfort in the fact that at least some people share our views, whether that’s about gun control, financial reform, what wars we are fighting, abortion, whatever. If we’re not careful, we sit and consume our favorite newsviews the way kids will sit and consume Big Macs, not understanding what the problem is, but getting every more angry when people encroach on our space and views.

Anyway, just because I’m not in favor of micro-government doesn’t mean I’m in favor of Big Government. There is a middle ground. When I taught political economy courses, in my last lecture on “course takeaways,” one of my biggest points was “Don’t try to stand in the way of the market unless you have a *very* good reason for it,” “Don’t try to change the rules of the market just to show that you are doing something,” “If you change the rules of the market, be prepared for unanticipated consequences, and try to identify and address least the most obvious ones.” The main message was “Markets aren’t perfect, but don’t be too quick to intervene in them, and if you do, keep as light a hand on them as you can justify.” You may notice a similar approach in my moderating style here on AF.

The first paragraph is laughable. Informed public? Seriously? I bet less than a quarter of those who vote could accurately match up their candidate with his/her views, if given a pop quiz. And how did your representative/senators vote on their last three bills? Or any three bills? I bet less than 5% of all voters can answer those questions.

I agree with the second paragraph. The media has become the fith branch of government (the Fed being the fourth), and the way people throw money to get politicians re-elected is ridiculous.

You win on the margins though.

I didn’t say that we have an informed public; I said that an informed public is important.

The part you cut out with your elipsis … is about how the electoral process helps “stir the pot of ideas.” It’s not a full substitute for having a public that is genuinely knowledgeable, but it does force arguments and ideas to circulate more than they would if there were none.

So here in 'Murica where democracy reigns supreme, I was trying to think of one single national issue or office the general public decides in a popular vote (aside from American Idol). I don’t think there is one.

People forget we’re a republic, not a true democracy.

So because you voted people will take your viewpoints very seriously. lol

More than 120,000,000 people voted in 2012, with the end result creating a Democratic Senate and President, while 73% of Americans supported background checks and your “representatives” in this bullsh*t system voted in favor of the lobbiests. Newsflash, noone in DC takes any of you seriuosly, especially those of you who vote. I’m the only one not drinking the kool aid enough to at least stop playing their game and sit on the sidelines until I see something that actually represents change. Voting for one paid off canididate over another isn’t effecting change where it counts.

It’s the people who vote who implicitly support the system. They’re the ones who have no right to complain about it. George Carlin makes the point better than I can:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIraCchPDhk

Any system where my vote matters as much as Honey Booboo’s parents doesn’t make much sense to me. Nevertheless, there are numerous reforms that could substantially improve the system without giving me more votes than stupid people. For instance, we can implement an objective way to create Congressional districts that avoids gerrymandering (k-means clustering, for instance). We can allow these Congressional districts to potentially have more than 1 Representative and then we can elect Representatives through a Single Transferable Vote ranking system (even with only 1 representative, its a fairer approach). These simple adjustments would essentially eliminate the wasted vote phenomenon and the argument that “my vote doesn’t matter”.

I also favor a STV system for determining the breakdown of electoral college votes in Presidential elections, but other approaches could also work. Electing 3 Senators instead of 2 seems rather obvious. I also favor letting State Legislatures select Senators, but that wouldn’t really cause me to vote more frequently.

No. Because you didn’t vote, people will take your viewpoints less seriously.

For someone who complains about people’s reading comprehension on a regular basis, you should try some yourself.

^ I assumed the converse of your original statement held true, otherwise you make no point. Sorry for assuming some logic in what you said. My bad, I won’t make that mistake again.

So they won’t take you seriously because you didn’t vote, but they also won’t take you seriously because you vote. Great point Bchad.

Anyhow, I +1 the Carlin video above.

Converses do not hold true in all cases. That is basic logic.

You can try rhetorical tricks if you like, but it’s pretty transparent that you are simply choosing to ignore what I said and make it sound incoherent using some failed logical acrobatics. That’s your choice if you like and fine with me, but it doesn’t make what I originally said illogical.

No, but without the converse in this case, you have no point. Based on the above “defense” I feel you’re agreeing.

Yeah, that does suck.

Churchill said it best: “Democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried.”

OK, since this conversation has turned into a rhetorical point about what “not very seriously” means, and whether the converse of “not very seriously” has to obtain in order to be a logically coherent point, let me rephrase “not very seriously” as meaning “less seriously,” which now obeys lexical conversity or whatever you want to call it.

I concede that you have found a rhetorical technicality, which I have now corrected. You may savour the moment in its fullest.

Jerry! Jerry! Jerry!