MILF

That’s true. I think most people are pretty good natured most of the time (outside of finance and a few other areas in life). I don’t think most women start out that way, but it’s hard to predict what will happen when the chips are down. Prenups fail and divorces are messy, life altering events.

I don’t need the state to tell me who I should spend my life with. There’s nothing I can’t get outside of marriage that I can get with marriage except lower taxes.

I would flip this back to you. 50% of marriages end in divorce, but that number is artificially depressed by people who have old school morals who have been married for decades or are extremely religious and would rather just be unhappy than get divorced. The outlook for new ventures is probably like 40-45% success rate. So if you are going to get married, you need to have some reason to believe that you are better / smarter / more compatible than the other 55-60% of people who tried it and failed, otherwise you are just rolling the dice.

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I agree that people change and things can get ugly fast (on both sides). But it’s like finance fraud, you try the best to avoid it but it still happens once in a while. Does it mean you won’t do a transaction?

You are claiming that there is no downside in not getting married. I disagree. I think the biggest downside/risk in not getting married is that the woman will simply walk away from you because of this non-commitment. And if you are really into that woman (the only reason to even consider the marriage), it will become a huge downside for you.

Society is evolving in interesting ways. Men perceive marriage as having relatively little upside (though many are probably forgetting the research that suggests that most married men have lower overall levels of stress and live longer and in better health), and with the downside of losing half their stuff and possibly custody of any children. Therefore men are less eager to get married than they used to be.

Many women would still like to get married, but given that men aren’t so interested anymore, many women are becoming single moms by choice - either artificial insemination or adoption or arranging with the guy that he has no responsibilities for the child. And with more women working, it’s becoming increasingly feasible for high-earning women. It’s not a majority by any means, but it is increasingly common happening.

Could this be the new way of the world. Marriage may just die out. Only gays will get married. And people who want lower taxes.

I agree that people change and things can get ugly fast (on both sides). But it’s like finance fraud, you try the best to avoid it but it still happens once in a while. Does it mean you won’t do a transaction?

You are claiming that there is no downside in not getting married. I disagree. I think the biggest downside/risk in not getting married is that the woman will simply walk away from you because of this non-commitment. And if you are really into that woman (the only reason to even consider the marriage), it will become a huge downside for you.

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You make it sound as if the only reason for a woman to stay committed is per mariage, a quasi social/religious contract that is a quite recent addition to human affairs anyways. Somehow i find the notion of commitment-by-mariage quite unromantic,it is as if the only way you can prove your commitment to a woman you love is via a government intervention that gives you status/tax changes in an area of human interaction that wants to be at n=2. The downside does not come from the lady walking away from you due to non-married status but that she considers this certificate as a pre requisite in the first place.

I think bchad hit the nail on the head (poor nails!). A good relationship requires ppl that are not afraid to give or take when the moment is right. While there is some truth to the idea that men and women quite often misunderstand each other, i think that isn’t necessarily a bad thing as it forces us to communicate and compromise in ways that would be superfluous if we knew/understood everything about one another. Many of those glamour magazines that purport to ‘unravel the mystery of the sexes’ often operate like big pharma,creating problems that do not exist and then selling you relief from it.

Looking at how the traditional ‘family unit’ is becoming increasingly dismantled by libertarian strains in societies and tech advances in biology, mariage as we have known it for some time now may well become a thing of the past.

Also NANA, for the record, not all guys like to hang around other guys and boast about the ladies they had been with in a d##k measuring contest…many guys actually consider that poor taste and are uncomfortable to have other dudes talk smack about their loved ones…

I agree I just think the marry or not to marry is a closer call than you’re making it sound.

There are synergistic effects-- you can’t get more stuff done, get laid slightly more, and sometimes women can be kinda nice to have around. Sometimes the stability gained can result in productivity gains.

– those are the upsides your gambling for— and typically don’t get.

but, hey, you could make it out alive-- I’ve seen it before

like I said, just avoid swamp donkeys.

It’s funny how people love to say this quote, like it’s so obvious. Two things that are becoming apparent to me as I prepare for the plunge:

  1. Many women actually have a lot of “stuff”. She doesn’t have to be Ivanka Trump to bring a lot of assets to the table.

  2. If you choose the right person, it is very likely that you will achieve more with that person than you would otherwise.

The above quote is true if you marry somebody with limited resources who doesn’t make any money. Not so much if you marry a brain surgeon, successful business owner or even a rich debutante. I just think a lot of successful men are intimidated by women that bring as much to the table as they do financially; the feel they are going to need to keep the financial handcuffs on some woman or they lose control.

Oh yeah, and obviously the odds of it being successful depend on the skill of the person entering the contract to assess their particular odds. I consider myself better at assessing the decision than the majority of people out there, certain better than people getting married in their twenties with no career to speak of and no understanding of what it takes to succeed as an individual in the real world, let alone what it means to support a family.

It’s somewhat ironic that people who presumably believe they have above average skill in investing (active management has a similarly low success rate to marriage) believe that they have average or no skill in assessing a life decision over which they have so much more control. Marriage is more like PE than pulic company stock: you have control and it only takes one big deal to win big, but the stakes are high and you better be pretty sure it’s going to work out.

Go from talking about MILFs, to pure and equitable marriages? Shit’s getting deep.

Good points about women bringing assets to the table. Especially in the modern world, that’s something real.

However, I must say that watching my weathly mother clean my middle class father out after a divorce that she precipitated, I am pretty wary of what the legal system can do. For him, it wasn’t even half his stuff… it was pretty much all of it. He was just happy to get away. Unfortunately, his second wife wasn’t much better (though he stayed married to her). Poor guy just had appaling judgement with women.

The laws still seem to favor taking half the guy’s stuff but not the woman’s because much of the code was written at a time when women had far fewer working opportunities than they have today, and lawyers exploit that. It’s changing, but very slowly. Interestingly, the inevitable issues coming out of gay divorce may be a major motivator for updating those kinds of things.

I’ve seen a few divorces. Bchad, I’m guessing your mother had no job or means of supporting herself independently? If so, that scenario makes a lot more sense.

Ok, I think we are talking about the same thing here. You just call it power and I call it compromise, which I agree is a back and forth kind of thing.

You see, I think the “WTF do I need to adapt at all” kind of attitude is more likely to occur when a couple decided not get married. It’s much easier mentally to give up and walk away when you haven’t made that “official commitment” in front of society. Marriage makes both parties responsible to at least try to work it out.

I agree on the saying.

No, I meant for many women a legal marriage is a prove that the guy is commited to her. And if he doesn’t want to get married she just assumes he is not fully commited to her.

I think in reality, a lot of the times (there are exceptions of course) when a guy doesn’t want to get married, he (maybe even w/out realizing it himself) doesn’t want to marry that particular woman.

Ooops, my post went long…

Well, that’s the way the lawyers put it. However, she had a millionaire father supporting her, plus she was a national security analyst (probably for the CIA, at one point for the state department, but she never really said for sure) and at the time of the divorce had several working options. However, she never visibly worked when I was growing up.

All in all, my parents didn’t provide me very useful models of how to work in the world we have today. My father had a tenured academic research job (particle physics) of the type doesn’t really exist anymore (now that the cold war is over). My mother spent her life spending her father’s money. By the time she died, there was nothing left… I recieved a box of old photographs and had to put up a fight just to try to get six plates of nice china that I remember from my childhood. That was more or less the sum total of everything (aside from tickets to visit) I got from her since I turned maybe 15, other than one time in grad school.

Perhaps I sound bitter (and I am), but it’s not so much about feeling entitled to her stuff, and more about the frustration of being raised with expectations of what I was supposed to achieve in life and how to do it and then totally not being given the resources or proper education to achieve them. OK, if you’re going to live like a queen but keep me out in the cold, then don’t compare me to friends and neighbors who have their family and connections behind and pulling for them. And - if you’re not going to help because you want it all for yourself - at least teach me to fight tooth and nail like an irish or italian floor trader (or not try to stop me when I go that direction) rather than force me to learn it on my own in my late 20s (something that still doesn’t come naturally to me).

I work for a guy who said “Yeah, 2004 was a tough year for me, so I called up my dad and asked if I could borrow $100,000, and he said fine.” For most of my life, I realize I’ve been competing with people who can do that and end up coming up short. Meanwhile, I asked for $2000 to help with the cost of living in New York during my first year of grad school: she talked me down to $1500 and told me never to ask for anything ever again (and I didn’t). How does one compete favorably with that? Yet my boss looks like the winner, and I look like the screw-up. It’s very frustrating.

Anyway, about five years ago I went to a shrink and he helped me untangle a lot of the stuff that those experiences created, and I’m more accepting of who I am, more proud of what I’ve accomplished, and less angsty in general. But it still hurts to have lost over a decade of my life to that kind of stuff, because that is a decade that I really could have enjoyed and used far more effectively.

The shrink also helped me relate far better to women in relationships, because he helped me understand how the wacky women my father liked made me too scared to trust the women I met. Today I have a better understanding that not all women are like my mother and step-mother, and I have learned to spot the red flags that will keep me away from such people, and my relationships with women have become far, far better and more satisfying as a result.

So, perhaps I’ve overshared here. But it’s an interesting experience, life. I’m old enough that I can look back on it and see arcs and currents that you can’t see going forward, but young enough that I can also hope to learn something useful for the future.

oh bchad…hugs.

no homo.

Perhaps that post belongs in a thread that is not called “MILFs”.

Man, that’s rough. I can relate to “being attracted to the wrong type”. It’s hard to recognize it on your own.

Glad you could overcome the angst.

Ha ha ha.

LOL

@BGAChad - a shrink once told me to read a book called “Feeling Good” by Robert Burns. It helped a lot.

Do all of you go to shrinks???

David Burns, you mean. Not the Scottish poet, I suppose