You mean Steven Jones I think. I’m a fan. Really. I am not a conspiracy theorist but this whole thing stinks to me.
KJH Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Google Alex Jones to find out all about govt > conspiracies. I’m on the fence about 9/11 after > some of the things I’ve read. > > Put option activity on airlines was through the > roof days prior to 9/11… I don’t doubt that there are things that the government, particularly the US govt as it has the most power and clout, has to hide from citizens. If an asteroid’s coming, they ain’t likely to tell us until like a few weeks before for instance. If not, people will go f’ing bananas. All the same, it amuses me that people worry and talk so much about who shot JFK, or aliens in New Mexico, but don’t give a s*** that their government appointed dudes in a board room who print money to get rid of problems, and allows Govt to use shaddy accounting practices…all of which will result, someday, in chaos. But maybe that’s the real conspiracy now isn’t it. Society’s ADD and fascinations with scandals, celebrities and gossip.
chrismaths Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > I remember meeting the Chief Exec of the FSA (the > uk regulator) in late 2001 after 11/9. He was > going on about how they were spending all their > time looking for evidence of suspicious trading > activity ahead of 11/9. It did amuse me that they > thought that > > a) Multi-Millionaire Osama bin Laden woke up one > morning, called his broker in the WTC, bought a > load of put options on airlines then ordered his > crazies to fly into his broker. > > b) that they thought money motivated these > people. > > c) that the FSA thought they would be able to > separate those people who bought put options > because the US and Europe were tipping into > recession and there were too many unprofitable > airlines around from people with foreknowledge. > > From talking to him, it seemed they were just > doing what Washington were asking them though. > > Amusingly, Enron then went bust and there were a > load of old fashioned accounting scandals - > something the FSA should have been worrying about > instead of chasing smoke and shadows. OK that’s not what happened. The evidence does seem reasonable that those buildings shouldn’t have fallen like that from burning jet fuel. We’ve spent $3T since then on wars justified by pointing to 9/11 but we haven’t caught the guy who did it. We have an administration that has deeply cut into numerous civil liberties and lied to us repeatedly. BTW - one of those people who made lots of money on 9/11 was me. I didn’t have any inkling of 9/11 (obviously) but the world was looking pretty bleak and I was positioned for bleak. Then it got really bleak.
Agreed. I don’t pay enough attention to government actions as I should, but I’m shocked to realize I’m more in the know than the bimbo in front of me at the grocery store picking up the latest Cosmo with the latest Hilton story/Spears arrest. We do have a nation full of sheeple.
JoeyDVivre Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > You mean Steven Jones I think. I’m a fan. > Really. I am not a conspiracy theorist but this > whole thing stinks to me. No I mean Alex Jones. He’s a libertarian out of Austin Texas. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alex_Jones_(radio) And that is one ugly mugshot!
Well, then, add Steven Jones to the list. His work impresses me.
JoeyDVivre Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > OK that’s not what happened. The evidence does > seem reasonable that those buildings shouldn’t > have fallen like that from burning jet fuel. The wife’s an architect. She reckons that Steel is really rubbish in a fire - it buckles under heat, and that’s why you have to insulate it to hell under building regs. The insulation in WTC was a bit rubbish and got blown off when the planes hit. The steel was heat weakened, so The floors above the impact levels then fell, crushing the lower floors in a concertina effect. However, the building still did a cracking job of staying upright long enough to evacuate everyone below the impact levels. Everyone above those levels was dead the moment the planes hit, as were the brave fireys who ran into the builiding instead of evacuating the area where they were bound to fall - they had no way of knowing this of course. > We’ve spent $3T since then on wars justified by > pointing to 9/11 but we haven’t caught the guy who > did it. We have an administration that has deeply > cut into numerous civil liberties and lied to us > repeatedly. No disagreements from me! For what it’s worth (not much) I think that Bush always had the intention of invading Iraq - the WTC attacks were unrelated events that Bush used to try to justify his preexisting desire to fix daddy’s mistakes. It’s a real shame because there was so much goodwill to the US after the attacks - Afghanistan was a reasonable reaction (now sadly screwed due to Iraq distractions). That was utterly squandered. I don’t think anyone (who could point to Iraq on a map) really believed that the Iraq war had anything to do with terrorism. > BTW - one of those people who made lots of money > on 9/11 was me. I didn’t have any inkling of 9/11 > (obviously) but the world was looking pretty bleak > and I was positioned for bleak. Then it got > really bleak. Precisely.
chrismaths Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > JoeyDVivre Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > > OK that’s not what happened. The evidence does > > seem reasonable that those buildings shouldn’t > > have fallen like that from burning jet fuel. > > The wife’s an architect. She reckons that Steel is > really rubbish in a fire - it buckles under heat, > and that’s why you have to insulate it to hell > under building regs. The insulation in WTC was a > bit rubbish and got blown off when the planes hit. > The steel was heat weakened, so The floors above > the impact levels then fell, crushing the lower > floors in a concertina effect. > > However, the building still did a cracking job of > staying upright long enough to evacuate everyone > below the impact levels. Everyone above those > levels was dead the moment the planes hit, as were > the brave fireys who ran into the builiding > instead of evacuating the area where they were > bound to fall - they had no way of knowing this of > course. > > > We’ve spent $3T since then on wars justified by > > pointing to 9/11 but we haven’t caught the guy > who > > did it. We have an administration that has > deeply > > cut into numerous civil liberties and lied to > us > > repeatedly. > > No disagreements from me! For what it’s worth (not > much) I think that Bush always had the intention > of invading Iraq - the WTC attacks were unrelated > events that Bush used to try to justify his > preexisting desire to fix daddy’s mistakes. It’s a > real shame because there was so much goodwill to > the US after the attacks - Afghanistan was a > reasonable reaction (now sadly screwed due to Iraq > distractions). That was utterly squandered. > > I don’t think anyone (who could point to Iraq on a > map) really believed that the Iraq war had > anything to do with terrorism. > > > BTW - one of those people who made lots of > money > > on 9/11 was me. I didn’t have any inkling of > 9/11 > > (obviously) but the world was looking pretty > bleak > > and I was positioned for bleak. Then it got > > really bleak. > > Precisely. A coworker of mine worked in T1 on the 79th floor, the one hit by the 2nd plane. He was in the stairwell around the 50th floor when the 2nd plane hit and wiped out his whole group, save him and another guy. He said that when the plane hit the stairwell wobbled like a rope ladder in the wind. The way the TT were built, with the external tube system holding up the bulk of the building with minimal internal bracing, it’s no surprise that once the floor bracings that held the floors to the tubes buckled, making the next floor support the weight of the buckled, which then caused more buckling and eventual pancaking of the entire building. People expect these buildings to have fallen like traditional buildings, which use interlocking beams, similar to lincoln logs, or erector set constructions. This type of structure builds in multiple levels of redundancy, one failure in one area is supported by multiple other areas of strength. When the fire retardent was blown off of the floor supports, they became brittle. Steel becomes brittle well before it melts, allowing it to break. You can observe this effect if you ever worked with hot steel or welding when the steel is over-heated, I have seen it many times. WTC7 fell because it was designed in such a way that the multiple support structure was compromised by the cantilever design. There is no conspiracy wrt to 9/11. Why is it so hard to believe that an exotic building fell in an exotic way? Why is it so hard to imagine that a guy who is a hero (one mans terrorist/rebel is another man’s freedom fighter) to many people in the Afghanistan/Pakistan area cannot be found, when we can hardly even find people who escape US law enforcement? This isn’t a James Bond movie. We didn’t spend 3TR on the wars, we spent less than $1200bn on Iraq and Afghanistan combined, the rest of the money went to tax cuts, handouts, increased military and DHS…etc. Bush’s “intentions” were driven by internal policies set by various Neocon/PNAC players, such as Feith, Rumsfeld, Bill Kristol, Ellen Bork, Jeb Bush, Paul Wolfowitz, Scooter Libby, Richard Armitage, John Bolton, Richard Perle, Robert Zoellick, and many others. This isn’t too hard to get. The same idiots listed above were the ones who wrote position papers pre-Bush discussing the invasion of Iraq and the establishment of US power in the ME. They have more recently discussed this policy extending to Iran and several other ME countries. I consider Bush to be a pretty weak pawn controlled by the same guys who failed Nixon (Cheney, Rumsfeld) in creating the Unitary/Unified Executive, attempting to grab power and controlling the other two branches of the government for almost absolute control. They got much closer this time, in controlling Congress and very nearly the judicial system also. It may sound crazy, but it’s pretty damn true.
spierce…I agree 100% It is a shame that America has lost the goodwill 9/11 built, but it was never sustainable to begin with.
^ holy crap, did i just agree with every point in a spierce post?
“We have an administration that has deeply cut into numerous civil liberties and lied to us repeatedly.” Not that I am disagreeing with your point in general. When I think about the erosion of civil liberties, it seems like a stupid thing for a president or sitting administration to sponsor if they don’t really feel it’s necessary. To erode civil liberties for personal gain is pretty short sighted, since in a few short years you will no longer be in power and will now be subject to the policy and proceedures you put in place.
Maverick22 Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > “We have an administration that has deeply cut > into numerous civil liberties and lied to us > repeatedly.” > > Not that I am disagreeing with your point in > general. When I think about the erosion of civil > liberties, it seems like a stupid thing for a > president or sitting administration to sponsor if > they don’t really feel it’s necessary. To erode > civil liberties for personal gain is pretty short > sighted, since in a few short years you will no > longer be in power and will now be subject to the > policy and proceedures you put in place. You’re assuming that the policies they put into place will be applied to them. If you study how aristocracies maintain power you know they attempt to manipulate the masses through various psychological and sociological controls. They then aid other aristocratic members, akin to back scratching, in order to maintain power. Aristocratic members always look out for their own, except when the masses demand blood, then they offer sacrificial lambs. Occasionally an outsider comes and sets the ruling class back, but overall, the ruling class only gains more power until they are crushed under their own weight. Did you ever see Cheney or Rummy come under attack during the Nixon issues, despite them being involved in them? What about Rummy being buddy buddy with Saddam, but nobody really mentioned it? Power attacks the corrupt and the insane.
the new bmw’s don’t guzzle that much gas, the 3Litre in the 335 gets about the same milage as my nissan. i walk to work and only use my car for fun, so i dont really give a fuck.
spierce Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > chrismaths Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > JoeyDVivre Wrote: > > > -------------------------------------------------- > > > ----- > > > > > OK that’s not what happened. The evidence > does > > > seem reasonable that those buildings > shouldn’t > > > have fallen like that from burning jet fuel. > > > > The wife’s an architect. She reckons that Steel > is > > really rubbish in a fire - it buckles under > heat, > > and that’s why you have to insulate it to hell > > under building regs. The insulation in WTC was > a > > bit rubbish and got blown off when the planes > hit. > > The steel was heat weakened, so The floors > above > > the impact levels then fell, crushing the lower > > floors in a concertina effect. > > > > However, the building still did a cracking job > of > > staying upright long enough to evacuate > everyone > > below the impact levels. Everyone above those > > levels was dead the moment the planes hit, as > were > > the brave fireys who ran into the builiding > > instead of evacuating the area where they were > > bound to fall - they had no way of knowing this > of > > course. > > > > > We’ve spent $3T since then on wars justified > by > > > pointing to 9/11 but we haven’t caught the > guy > > who > > > did it. We have an administration that has > > deeply > > > cut into numerous civil liberties and lied to > > us > > > repeatedly. > > > > No disagreements from me! For what it’s worth > (not > > much) I think that Bush always had the > intention > > of invading Iraq - the WTC attacks were > unrelated > > events that Bush used to try to justify his > > preexisting desire to fix daddy’s mistakes. It’s > a > > real shame because there was so much goodwill > to > > the US after the attacks - Afghanistan was a > > reasonable reaction (now sadly screwed due to > Iraq > > distractions). That was utterly squandered. > > > > I don’t think anyone (who could point to Iraq on > a > > map) really believed that the Iraq war had > > anything to do with terrorism. > > > > > BTW - one of those people who made lots of > > money > > > on 9/11 was me. I didn’t have any inkling of > > 9/11 > > > (obviously) but the world was looking pretty > > bleak > > > and I was positioned for bleak. Then it got > > > really bleak. > > > > Precisely. > > A coworker of mine worked in T1 on the 79th floor, > the one hit by the 2nd plane. He was in the > stairwell around the 50th floor when the 2nd plane > hit and wiped out his whole group, save him and > another guy. He said that when the plane hit the > stairwell wobbled like a rope ladder in the wind. > > The way the TT were built, with the external tube > system holding up the bulk of the building with > minimal internal bracing, it’s no surprise that > once the floor bracings that held the floors to > the tubes buckled, making the next floor support > the weight of the buckled, which then caused more > buckling and eventual pancaking of the entire > building. > > People expect these buildings to have fallen like > traditional buildings, which use interlocking > beams, similar to lincoln logs, or erector set > constructions. This type of structure builds in > multiple levels of redundancy, one failure in one > area is supported by multiple other areas of > strength. > > When the fire retardent was blown off of the floor > supports, they became brittle. Steel becomes > brittle well before it melts, allowing it to > break. You can observe this effect if you ever > worked with hot steel or welding when the steel is > over-heated, I have seen it many times. > > WTC7 fell because it was designed in such a way > that the multiple support structure was > compromised by the cantilever design. > > There is no conspiracy wrt to 9/11. Why is it so > hard to believe that an exotic building fell in an > exotic way? Why is it so hard to imagine that a > guy who is a hero (one mans terrorist/rebel is > another man’s freedom fighter) to many people in > the Afghanistan/Pakistan area cannot be found, > when we can hardly even find people who escape US > law enforcement? This isn’t a James Bond movie. > > We didn’t spend 3TR on the wars, we spent less > than $1200bn on Iraq and Afghanistan combined, the > rest of the money went to tax cuts, handouts, > increased military and DHS…etc. > > Bush’s “intentions” were driven by internal > policies set by various Neocon/PNAC players, such > as Feith, Rumsfeld, Bill Kristol, Ellen Bork, Jeb > Bush, Paul Wolfowitz, Scooter Libby, Richard > Armitage, John Bolton, Richard Perle, Robert > Zoellick, and many others. > > This isn’t too hard to get. The same idiots > listed above were the ones who wrote position > papers pre-Bush discussing the invasion of Iraq > and the establishment of US power in the ME. They > have more recently discussed this policy extending > to Iran and several other ME countries. > > I consider Bush to be a pretty weak pawn > controlled by the same guys who failed Nixon > (Cheney, Rumsfeld) in creating the Unitary/Unified > Executive, attempting to grab power and > controlling the other two branches of the > government for almost absolute control. They got > much closer this time, in controlling Congress and > very nearly the judicial system also. > > It may sound crazy, but it’s pretty damn true. yet another point of yours I agree with. Speak with a structural engineer and they can tell you excatly why those buildings fell. Plus if it was a conspiracy on the part of the bush government don’t you think they’d be found out pretty quick? Imagine the number of people that would have had to be involved for this to be done and also look at the Bush admin’s track record. These guys are so inept they have pretty much screwed up every endevour they have embarked upon and you think they could do a logisitcal undertaking like this and get away with it? Besides those Neo-cons were writing white papers on how america could secure the middle east by invading Iraq, Syria and Iran since the 90’s. Anyone who understands the history and demographics of the region would immediately be aware of the fact that they whole lot of them were fools.
I know exactly “why those buildings fell” too. I’m just not sure I believe it.
JoeyDVivre Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > I know exactly “why those buildings fell” too. > I’m just not sure I believe it. I am pretty sure you didn’t mean it this way and I am joking a bit…but this sounds akin to… “I know the sky is blue. I’m just not sure I believe it.”
You guys seem to know what you are talking about… which is more than I can say for a lot of the media… what is your take on this article? http://www.news.com.au/business/story/0,23636,23754398-462,00.html It says that oil prices are currently a bubble…and they are basing this on the ‘fact’ that the Persian gulf is full of supertankers chartered by oil-rich governments to hold fuel they cannot sell. Is this really a fact? or is it data twisting of some sort?
It’s true, though to imply that the Persian Gulf is “full” of them is a bit of an exaggeration. Basically each refinery is designed to handle crude oil of a certain grade (ie, whether it has sulfur in it and how heavy/viscous it is). The short reason is that there is no buyer because there is no refinery that can accept that kind of crude. These tankers all have millions of barrels, but considering that DAILY oil use is approximately 85 million barrels it is minuscule compared to the grand scheme of things. There is not to say that there is no speculation or that there is no bubble (I don’t know if there is); but if there was, it would be due to wall street brainiacs and not due to sheiks in the middle east that can barely stay in power as it is.
OK…dumb question…why would they be producing oil no one can refine? or is it that refinery capacities are currently too constrained?
“A coworker of mine worked in T1 on the 79th floor, the one hit by the 2nd plane. He was in the stairwell around the 50th floor when the 2nd plane hit and wiped out his whole group, save him and another guy. He said that when the plane hit the stairwell wobbled like a rope ladder in the wind. The way the TT were built, with the external tube system holding up the bulk of the building with minimal internal bracing, it’s no surprise that once the floor bracings that held the floors to the tubes buckled, making the next floor support the weight of the buckled, which then caused more buckling and eventual pancaking of the entire building. People expect these buildings to have fallen like traditional buildings, which use interlocking beams, similar to lincoln logs, or erector set constructions. This type of structure builds in multiple levels of redundancy, one failure in one area is supported by multiple other areas of strength. When the fire retardent was blown off of the floor supports, they became brittle. Steel becomes brittle well before it melts, allowing it to break. You can observe this effect if you ever worked with hot steel or welding when the steel is over-heated, I have seen it many times. WTC7 fell because it was designed in such a way that the multiple support structure was compromised by the cantilever design. There is no conspiracy wrt to 9/11. Why is it so hard to believe that an exotic building fell in an exotic way? Why is it so hard to imagine that a guy who is a hero (one mans terrorist/rebel is another man’s freedom fighter) to many people in the Afghanistan/Pakistan area cannot be found, when we can hardly even find people who escape US law enforcement? This isn’t a James Bond movie. We didn’t spend 3TR on the wars, we spent less than $1200bn on Iraq and Afghanistan combined, the rest of the money went to tax cuts, handouts, increased military and DHS…etc. Bush’s “intentions” were driven by internal policies set by various Neocon/PNAC players, such as Feith, Rumsfeld, Bill Kristol, Ellen Bork, Jeb Bush, Paul Wolfowitz, Scooter Libby, Richard Armitage, John Bolton, Richard Perle, Robert Zoellick, and many others. This isn’t too hard to get. The same idiots listed above were the ones who wrote position papers pre-Bush discussing the invasion of Iraq and the establishment of US power in the ME. They have more recently discussed this policy extending to Iran and several other ME countries. I consider Bush to be a pretty weak pawn controlled by the same guys who failed Nixon (Cheney, Rumsfeld) in creating the Unitary/Unified Executive, attempting to grab power and controlling the other two branches of the government for almost absolute control. They got much closer this time, in controlling Congress and very nearly the judicial system also. It may sound crazy, but it’s pretty damn true.” I am not sure if there is much of a point in posting this as you seem really set in your ways and with your “facts”, however I will still throw this out there. This here, discredits just about everything you say (especially in relation to the WTC), i found it an interesting watch: http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com/ (It’s a free watch that streams right from the website.) I don’t know why people are so against the fact that this could’ve been orchestrated like the events that took place in the past and led to USA’s involvement in WWI, WWII, and Vietnam, and now Iraq. There was always a catalyst, the catalyst was always preventable.