P.S. I am just trying to be realistic with you – if you can give me more details on the place you’re interviewing at, I can comment on the likelihood that you’d be brought in as a second-year. But the point is, if you get a first-year offer, don’t be discouraged. It may not make sense now, but you will have so many more exit opportunities in the future. Plus, aside from compensation, it really makes little difference whether you’re brought in as a first or second year – they’re still going to have to train you to do just about everything, and you will be in the same boat as the first-year analysts come buy-side recruiting because of your lack of transaction experience. But the most important thing is, I think if you can get any BB job in this market at the junior level, you are doing fine for yourself, and I get the impression that some people here don’t understand how difficult that is for anyone in the current job market.
numi, excellent post, thank you. If you say that coming in as a first or second year analyst is standard, then I won’t argue with that given that I am sure you have significantly more experience with the ibanking side of things than I do. You’re also right that I don’t have the offer yet. I posted my question about becoming a first year analyst because I am thinking of dropping out of the running. So yes, it is somewhat speculative. It seems like moving into a more senior sell-side research role or moving to the buyside in a research, asset management or hedge fund role would be more suited to my experience. As I stated before (and at the risk of stating the obvious), I am trying to move up the ladder, not down. It’s almost incomprehensible to me that 2+ years of a brutal lifestyle (I know you know about the sell side + CFA) would count for nothing in this sort of move. That seems like a total waste to me. Thanks again for your help and I will keep you updated as the situation progresses. I would prefer not to name the firm, but I will say that it is a top shop in the bay area on a tech M&A team.
Maybe I am being stupid here, but I just can’t see this. It is twice the hours (at least) for approximately the same pay and a demotion. So yes, I have to say that it does not make sense to me. I don’t mean to sound unappreciative of your help as you’ve been extremely helpful. Thank you for spelling it out clearly for me in realistic terms. numi Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > P.S. I am just trying to be realistic with you – > if you can give me more details on the place > you’re interviewing at, I can comment on the > likelihood that you’d be brought in as a > second-year. But the point is, if you get a > first-year offer, don’t be discouraged. It may not > make sense now, but you will have so many more > exit opportunities in the future. Plus, aside from > compensation, it really makes little difference > whether you’re brought in as a first or second > year – they’re still going to have to train you > to do just about everything, and you will be in > the same boat as the first-year analysts come > buy-side recruiting because of your lack of > transaction experience. But the most important > thing is, I think if you can get any BB job in > this market at the junior level, you are doing > fine for yourself, and I get the impression that > some people here don’t understand how difficult > that is for anyone in the current job market.
I would go for it. At this point in your career, with only three years of experience, you have the luxury of doing this. I have had to take a step back more than once in this economy and after 9/11 as well. One thing I found was that when I DID come in at a relatively senior level post-MBA, this actually worked against me later, because I did not have the entry level experience that others had who had worked their way up the ladder. So my advice is to not be hung up on a title or thinking you are stepping back, because you aren’t. You should be able to go in and knock the cover off of the ball and will have the opportunity to learn a lot. It is my guess that if you look back on this years later, you will be glad you did this. PS My last job had an OK title, at least to the outside world, but meant nothing at all internally. I have now accepted a job with the same title as the one I created for a guy who worked for me a few years ago who was just starting out. I could have fought it, I guess, but I am going for the experience - it’s a slightly different field than one I have worked in before - even though I turned down a job with this exact title three or four years ago for reasons much like you give. And that one paid 55% more in base. I still think I did the right thing but now am trying to get over the whole title thing. Your skills are relevant and transferable, but not completely, so if you want to get into investment banking, make sure it’s for the right reasons (the reasons you gave don’t seem like the ones I would hope to hear from someone, but the reasons given by other posters do).
numi, with all due respect to you and your obvious intellectual power, i do not think your personal experience of interviewing is a benchmark - you have allowed your current employer to low-ball you down to a pre-MBA level with more than 4 years of experience (if I remember correct). Having read your postings for quite a while already, I am more than sure that you could get a post-mba level job, in case you were not shy to negotiate. After receiving the charter last year, I had quite a few interviews at various top and near-top firms, and granted, all of them were for associate-level (post-mba) in IB or PE (and my relevant work experience track record was also about 4 years to that moment, just not in research). Finally I have joined top investment bank as a 2nd year associate - and I have declined a post-mba associate offer from a PE house during the time of my negotiations (I intend to make a career in IB, so in my case PE interviews were “just in case”). I do not think mentality of these firms vary differ country to country, to that extent that it would be that different in USA as you suggest it is
Yes, I agree with this. I did not give a lot of rationale for moving into ibanking in my first post because I wanted to keep it short and readable (I was also not exactly sure what constitutes a standard acceptable answer in interiviews). Ibanking is not my first choice by any stretch, rather, it is a job that my head hunter has tried to place me in. My ultimate goal is to get to the buyside and banking seemed like it might be a useful step in that direction. I don’t have a lot of passion for banking per se, although I think I could learn a lot, and if I were able to move forward in my career, I think it would be a good fit for up to two years. That said, there are a lot of other ways to get to the buyside, many of which seem more compelling for me. Good luck with your move, I hope it works out for you. DoubleDip Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- Your > skills are relevant and transferable, but not > completely, so if you want to get into investment > banking, make sure it’s for the right reasons (the > reasons you gave don’t seem like the ones I would > hope to hear from someone, but the reasons given > by other posters do).
bromion, I guess it totally depends on how much premium you put on banking – I think I probably put more value on it than most people here, because most people who do the CFA want to stay on the securities side and I wanted to move to the transactions side. But, based on your description, I have to assume that you are interviewing for CS or MS, in which case I think it would be crazy not to consider a first-year analyst offer with them. (I wasn’t even aware that either of them were hiring, but that’s besides the point) Anyway, it’s your call here. If I were in your shoes, I would take a first-year IB analyst opportunity assuming I couldn’t get a second, but that’s because I am used to working long hours and now that I’m in PE, I know that I can do it. But, judging by your posts, it doesn’t sound like you are ready to make the jump to banking. I think if you are not mentally committed, then it probably is not a good idea, especially if you so resent the idea of being brought in as a first-year analyst. It may be better for you to just pass on this.
numi, what do you think the probability is of coming on as a first year analyst and then moving to an analyst or associate PM role on the buyside after one year? I am not as familiar with ibanking exit ops as I am with research exit ops. It’s not so much that I resent coming on as a first year, but more than I want my experience to count, which seems mutually exclusive with taking a first year analyst role. Anyway, it might be palatable if my research / CFA experience were to count one year down the line. edit: To clarify, I am talking about a securities analyst type role at a hedge fund or other large buyside shop, not a PE analyst role. I.e., I do not see myself on the transaction side forever, so this would just be a stepping stone.
Neud Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > numi, with all due respect to you and your obvious > intellectual power, i do not think your personal > experience of interviewing is a benchmark - you > have allowed your current employer to low-ball you > down to a pre-MBA level with more than 4 years of > experience (if I remember correct). Having read > your postings for quite a while already, I am more > than sure that you could get a post-mba level job, > in case you were not shy to negotiate. Neud, not sure what country you are in, but being hired in as a pre-MBA PE associate for anyone with 2-3 years experience at the junior level on the sell-side is standard in the US across all the larger LBO shops. People normally finish up their two-year banking program and then move into PE. I actually had less than three years experience myself on the sell-side, and don’t have an MBA either (people here sometimes think I’ve been around longer, but that’s not so) – but that was why I was basically a mid-cycle hire. As far as my offer is concerned, I wasn’t shy about negotiating and definitely don’t feel like I was low-balled. Also, what was your background before you went down the banking route? What group are you in now?
bromion, i’m happy to discuss these things in more detail once you get the offer
Good discussion here - I read the posts quickly, and I have a question: what is the difference between “transactional modeling” and the type of modeling done in research? I’ve worked on the sell-side for the past two years and I’m always a little curious as to what exactly the bankers are up to on their side of things.
fuzzykiwi http://www.analystforum.com/phorums/read.php?1,791137,791344#msg-791344 http://www.analystforum.com/phorums/read.php?1,791137,791472#msg-791472
numi, I am in M&A. and regarding a move towards banking - well it happened some time before, just with a local bank which name is hardly familiar to you. By the time of this move, I had about 2 years of experience in portfolio investments and a level 1 of the CFA program under my belt.
bromion Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > numi, what do you think the probability is of > coming on as a first year analyst and then moving > to an analyst or associate PM role on the buyside > after one year? I am not as familiar with ibanking > exit ops as I am with research exit ops. > Why would you want to take a detour through M&A to end up at buy side? I am curious in that the ER skill set does not seem to count for much in M&A, but M&A does for buyside.
abacus Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Why would you want to take a detour through M&A to > end up at buy side? I am curious in that the ER > skill set does not seem to count for much in M&A, > but M&A does for buyside. Woah, nobody said that the finance world is rational. I have looked at over 200 jobs in the last couple of weeks, and a lot of the securities market jobs on the buyside I want specifically ask for M&A experience. That makes no sense, given that research is clearly a better fit than banking for these jobs, but it is nonetheless true. Besides, bankers move the market, so it would be beneficial for a career to learn about as many market players as possible. I am not sure why ER does not count more for banking. I killed the interview – knew all the technicals, and rolled through the modeling questions they had for me, even though I have not worked with transaction models before outside of independent study. To be honest, it seemed like pretty much the same stuff that I do now, with the exception of the transaction experience.
If you have no interest in doing IB for an extended period of time, it doesn’t matter what you come in as. I’ve seen some people go from analyst to associate without B-school so I thought if that was a goal of yours, perhaps you want to come in as a higher level. If this is a short-term thing, first decide if it’s worth it, don’t sweat the title.
accountant23 Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > If you have no interest in doing IB for an > extended period of time, it doesn’t matter what > you come in as. I’ve seen some people go from > analyst to associate without B-school so I thought > if that was a goal of yours, perhaps you want to > come in as a higher level. If this is a > short-term thing, first decide if it’s worth it, > don’t sweat the title. I agree. I’m also for moving onto other discussions because right now this is just too hypothethical to be interesting.
I’ve worked for a large private equity shop for the past two years and recently transitioned over into a more senior corporate development role. I’d like to add my 2 cents here for what they’re worth: -Job market is incredibly tough right now, so beggars can’t be choosers (unless you’re a rockstar, then you can always choose) -Get over the comp issue, you are still young and getting good experience is the most important thing in your career right now in terms of a)exit opportunities and b)graduate school… you will have the rest of your life to make millions Despite the points above, with three years of experience and two levels of CFA under your belt, I too would be hesitant to start as a first year analyst. A first year analyst straight out of undergrad/college has zero experience and is generally very green, both in terms of technical skills and soft skills. My suggestion to you would be to try to negotiate your way into a second year analyst role. This will mean higher comp, but more importantly, it will also put you ahead of the first years to get promoted. Just present a logical argument and be confident. Having said that, it also depends on the firm. If this is a GS or MS, I would not push too aggressively (but I would still try) as these firms probably have a long list of people who would be more than happy to make such compromises. Again, competition for these jobs is fierce right now given downsizing over the past few months (I find Goldman’s “one-year accelerated analyst program” cover to be hilarious btw) but also keep in mind that unlike your unemployed competition, you currently have a job so this provides some margin to wait for an attractive opportunity.
I would say, 2nd year analyst in GS could be acceptabnle, but only if they offer you permanent employment (and not that type of contract that expires after analyst works for 2 years).Still, I am sure that with due preparation to the interviews, you could make it to a 3rd year hire (maybe in a bank less prestigeous than GS, but still a strong one).
I would say, 2nd year analyst in GS could be acceptabnle, but only if they offer you permanent employment (and not that type of contract that expires after analyst works for 2 years).Still, I am sure that with due preparation to the interviews, you could make it to a 3rd year hire (maybe in a bank less prestigeous than GS, but still a strong one).