I wanted to start a thread on this on Sunday but i didn’t think there was much of a following for it. I have no clue where the show is heading now. I haven’t read the books either so i’m just patiently waiting for things to unfold.
Bchad, I also skipped over the spoilers written above. I spoiled season 1 for myself when I read online about the beheading of that crucial character prior to it happening.
Sweep, i think we will see a showdown of Bran vs Jon Snow and Danny. I think it is exactly what you said “Ice” vs “Fire” it will be old magic of the north vs old magic of the dragons
BTW Can’t wait for Arya to kick some ass, “Thief” style
SPOILERS
I’m not sure it’ll come down to Bran vs fire. That’s actually the storyline I find most interesting. I mean, both are against the Others, and Bloodraven is a Targaryen after all, so I’m not convinced they have to be enemies.
On a side note, I really enjoy that many of the various gods seem to have power except the Seven. They’re definitely the lamest of all the gods.
Spoilers?
The “Bran is evil” story seems too simplistic and cliche to actually happen. In fact, there is very little in the general story that clearly aligns characters as good or evil. The “evil” ones are mostly just serving their own interests. There is also usually an explanation for the especially evil characters. Gregor Clegane is angry because he has constant pain from his gigantism. Viserys is bitter because he was forced to become the “beggar king” after his family was slaughtered. Cersei is a bitch, but we learn that Robert and her dad treated her like crap and she is partly trying to protect her kids.
While some characters are good or at least honorable, but GRR Martin kills them off one by one - Eddard Stark is the best example. GRR Martin kills off the morally best character early in the story, seemingly to make a point that this is not the sort of world that centralizes heroes.
Where Bran is concerned, characters that suffer personal misfortune not caused by themselves seem to have redeeming story lines. Varys gets his balls chopped off, but he is arguably one of the only characters who works in the interest of “the realm”. Jaime is an arrogant dick, but then becomes a good guy after getting his hand chopped off. Tyrion is a dwarf, but becomes the most heroic Lannister. So - Bran is crippled, but…? I agree that he better have an important part in the greater story to justify this whole narration about going to find the greenseer. However, I don’t think it will be an “evil” story - though it might be tragic or dark, like many things in Song of Ice and Fire.
A lot of great storytelling is about people who we initially classify as good or evil, and then we come to get at the complexity of their decisions and how they became who they are. That’s why a story like this is far more gripping than a typical “Superfriends” episode. The longevity of the Star Wars saga is also because Darth Vader wasn’t born evil, but because he evolved to evil, and argubly was redeemed at some point by his son (though personally, I don’t quite buy that).
Also the characters in GoT themselves are fascinating, even the evil ones. I love how Tywin is able to use the force of his personality to boss everyone around, including Joffrey, who could in theory have him beheaded (or worse) at a whim. Varys is also fascinating, and is well played. He actually does appear to have the good of the realm in mind, so long as it doesn’t hurt him personally. The bit where he has that wizard locked up in a box is a particularly interesting revelation about his personality, in a gruesome way. Littlefinger’s motivations are also quite interesting - the sparring with Varys for reasons not quite known - his love for Catelyn is interesting, and may become important in how events evolve from here.
I like how things are mostly politics and science, but magic makes occasional appearences. I guess it was a bit of a spoiler for me to learn that an overarching theme is the “reawakening” of magical forces, but that’s a revelation that I can live with fairly easily.
I look forward to a lot more Varys/Littlefinger sparring.
Couldn’t resist reading the spoilers, now I’ll have to read the books (while prepping for GMAT)… Sh*t!
Ramsay is pretty much evil.
Any spoilers on pot pie? I loved that chubby kid
Also based on what we have seen on the show so far, who do you consider the true heir to the iron throne?
Dragon lady, since her ancestors ruled Westeros?
Robert’s bastard Jendry?
Stannis?
or Joffrey?
I think it does a good job of making it unclear as to who is the true heir. Ultimately, the more peaceful and secure the kingdom is, the more secure the incumbent. The average person probably thinks Joffrey is rightful heir, since his parentage is just a rumor that we viewers happen to think is true. However, since Joffrey is Caligula-like, people may reach for an excuse to delegitimize him if they can.
Given the truth about Joffrey’s birth, Stannis does seem to be the rightful heir to Robert, even though he is incredibly uncharismatic (though Melissandre is kinda fun to watch).
Danaerys is arguably a strong claimant, if you consider Robert Baratheon’s ascendency illegitimate (like Oliver Cromwell or something). However, it’s not clear here whether the throne can pass to queens (as in England) or not (as in monarchical France). Clearly, Danaerys’s offspring or spouse could arguably inherit, or there wouldn’t be any point in having her killed. Danaerys is also magical (immune to fire), has real live dragons, and is cuter than any of the other contenders. Danaerys is planning to take the throne by conquest, though, which overrides familial claims, and maybe that is a more sensible approach, given her circumstances.
So it really does boil down to what criteria you find most important, just like in a real civil war.
Based on the show so far? I’d go with Dany I suppose. She’s a Targaryen after all. But, since Robert crushed the last Targaryen king, I guess you could say it would be Stannis. Can’t be Joffrey since he’s a product of wincest.
Ultimately the Throne goes to whoever can win it. The Targaryens didn’t have any claim on it but they came over with dragons and effed everyone up. Robert didn’t have any claim to it* but he won it through force. So, whoever can muster the strength to take it can claim it. By that rationale it’s hard to bet against Tywin Lannister.
*Robert claimed he had a very small amount of Targaryen blood on his mother’s side, and it may have been true, but it didn’t matter.
Political process in GOT is a combination of a strongest claim to the throne and force of arms. For instance, Robert became king instead of Ned Stark or Jon Aryn because Robert had the highest claim to the throne (his grandma was a Targaeryn), and collectively, they had force of arms to overthrow Aerys.
Similarly, we can say that Daenarys (or Viserys) has a claim to the throne, but this is only meaningful if they can support the claim with an army. So, their whole mission in life is to gather an army and invade Westeros.
Or compare Renly to Stannis. Stannis clearly has a better claim (he is the elder brother), but Renly had a bigger army. So fuck you Stannis!
The throne can pass to women in the books. For Targaryans, the women were behind all the men (by that I take it to mean even uncles and maybe also bastards). That’s not the only order of succession in Westeros. Most of the Houses would place (trueborn) daughters after (trueborn) sons, but not place bastards or uncles ahead of trueborn daughters. On the other hand, I believe the House Martell would allow an elder daughter to inherit over a younger son.
In the TV series, if people recognized Dany’s rule, there is no reason she wouldn’t be in power since there is no one else known from her family. The issue is that no one in Westeros does recognize Dany’s rule. When it comes down to it, power and loyalty are more important than order of succession. If you control the Iron Throne, you can make whatever rules you want so long as you maintain the loyalty of those who support you (so they don’t stab you in the back).
With that being said, they still need to justify rule of force with some kind of hereditary claim. Otherwise, why keep lying that Joffrey is Robert’s son? Or why can’t some random person lead Dany’s army?
Family claim is extremely important at all levels. “There must always be a Stark in Winterfell,” for example. Or any number of complete idiots that people still follow (Robert Aryn) because they feel it’s their duty. Lots of duty in this world.
Ned Stark could have claimed the throne, and Robert would have probably let him. Hell, even Jaime Lannister was willing to give it to him, but Ned didn’t because it wasn’t his place.
And, women have a stronger claim under Targaryen rule than Westrosi law. Bastards get screwed in both systems. That’s what the Blackfyre Rebellion was all about.
Thanks for ruining the entire series for me Ohai. This is just great.
jk
but what about Gendry? No love for him? He does have Robert’s blood
I don’t think that’s right. They talk in the books about some Kingmaker who chose a boy king instead of the girl that was supposed to be queen, leading to a war (the Dance of the Dragons).
I’ll have to look it up, awoiaf is down at the moment. But, I believe that’s why it led to war, the girl had the better claim and she was passed over. Just goes to show claim isn’t everything.
And, no, no love for Gendry. Put your faith in a different bastard.