good call tvPM… I leave that one off. Networking is big but dont try to meet everyone in your company which I was working on. lol Just focus on people that can help you make your move happen and on a desk its not HR.
im with goldenboy on this. ive seen plenty of people move from middle office trading assistant roles into jr trader jobs and all of the things goldenboy mentioned were key to the move. ive seen it happen across all products in rates, treasuries, swaps, swaptions, etc. also have seen it happen in mbs & f/x. his advice is spot on, some places are fully against this type of move but its possible at others; just have to work hard, make your intentions known, network, and bide your time. there are many different types of people in mo/bo, most are content with the path they are on while others make a proactive effort to learn on their own, further their career. it goes w/o saying its typically easiest to move onto the desk you support (depending on desk mgr) since you know the business conventions of the product and presumably have made an effort to learn the technical details of the market while being in bo/mo. goldenboy id be interested in hearing about your story, if you dont mind emailing me as Im in a somewhat similar position. email is jackson24nj@hotmail.com
I dont mind posting it on here. Its just kind of long . I will make a short version this afternoon
post it on here for all goldenboy, would be great to hear
2004-2005 I was working in a front office role for a large investment management company focusing on a vanilla large cap model and more or less telling people how rich they were on a daily basis. The job was great for a new grad and taught me a lot via their analyst program. I started to see the path my career was heading and wanted a change. I wanted to be more involved in the decisions. I wanted to trade to make money not simply “rebalancing” our portfolio’s. Mid to Late - 2005 So I hit the “net” and began to look for every job in my city that had the word trading, trader or var. After two months of applying and nothing I widen my net and started looking for mid and back office jobs. I got a few interviews with trading firms and a lot of interviews for jobs just like the one I was leaving. Guess my exp was very good but to do the same job at another firm. I was looking for someone more even if it meant spending some time in THE BACK OFFICE. Those two words from post on wso.com and af.com are suppose to mean “I suck and have no career goals” I went to my interviews and got a job offer from two. One was with a very large firm and the other was a start up. I was 23 and had some money saved so said why now. Lets go with the start up. The interviews were fun and the people were nice. I asked in every interview if anybody from their department made the move to front office. At the start up their mentioned one guy. So I knew it could be done and accepted on the spot when I got my call with an offer. So I start my new job and had a hard time with all the processes and the way their did things. I was focused on moving to front office asap. At the x mas party about 3 months after I started I talked to the trader who came from back office. His advice was to talk to his manager and just take that chit. His words and I remember to this day. So I ask to meet his manager which I talk to for a minute then go back to the drink fest at the bar. I followed up with his for next 3 months and cont to do my best on my job. I did every extra crappy job I could from filing to making snap shots of processes for a “process manuel”. Pasting print screens onto a word doc. At my mid year review I told my boss my goal and he was cool with it but asked for a year of service. I said no problem. He said he was happy to be the farm system for the trade desk. He took a lot of pride in his back office analyst moving up within the firm. I told the manager of trade desk my goal and he was like , “ you’re a good kid and bust you’re a$$, I could use you on my team… lets make it happen” True of the matter and something I did not know at the time was my whole firm was growing non stop. They needed front, mid and back office people so my timing could not had be better. Also since the move had been done and the person was going a great job…other desk’s were open to bringing someone over. We also found that it was easier to promote someone internally then pay above street to hire someone from another firm. I did my best and made the move at month 14. I stayed for an extra two months to train some new analysts and just help where I could. I did not mind at all and it was a good way to leave on good terms. I also got a 20% raise. The learning curve was fairly short since I worked back office for the same product. I got a bit of hazing from the traders but I was already a smart a$$ so it did not trouble me. I knew it was part of the new guy thing. I played sports in college and know the freshman do the crap jobs for a year and this was no different. The original back office to trader left in early 2007 to another BB and I left in early 2008 to a HF. We both went on to a more senior roles in the same job. It is possible but you need a lot of things to fall your way. Is it the best way? No, I would prefer to get the job from the jump and not put in a year in back office. However, I did not have that option so for ME… this was the only way. Good luck ….sorry for the misspelled words… this was a rough draft
Great story goldenboy. I think it will give a lot of hope to back office workers here taking the CFA. Of course you were lucky this all happened at the top of the market, but as things pickup hopefully this kind of movement can start happening again.
buddha Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > ^ > err…-1 > > Let me have an attempt at this game. > > You are a new grad from a top 50 state school, who > thought it was cool to party through school. Now > you work in a BO job dreaming about the day you > actually had a meaningful job, meanwhile failing > to realize that the odds are drastically against > you, evidenced by the fact that very few of the > guys in front office actually started in the back > office and there is an abundance of back office > lifers in your department. Well, that may be the case but let’s not begrudge those folks in the back-office that have aspirations to move onto something better. Last I checked, having initiative and motivation were good things, regardless of how “stacked” the odds are against you. Also, how is your LV collection relevant to any aspect of the discussion here? What difference would it make if one had a collection of BMW’s, candy corn, etc. that were worth the same amount?
what’s lv collection?
numi Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Well, that may be the case but let’s not begrudge > those folks in the back-office that have > aspirations to move onto something better. Last I > checked, having initiative and motivation were > good things, regardless of how “stacked” the odds > are against you. > > Also, how is your LV collection relevant to any > aspect of the discussion here? What difference > would it make if one had a collection of BMW’s, > candy corn, etc. that were worth the same amount? Not trying to belittle anyone’s aspirations, just trying to temper them with realistic expectations. The reason I originally felt the need to say something is that the abundance of post like this are one of the many causes of the floods of IT support people chasing a false dream. And I do what I can to disseminate an more accurate message of what they are facing. In this particular case 1.) pay is bad 2.) upward mobility is rare In regard to the LV collection reference it was to quantify how pitiful the renumeration prospects are in BO, i.e. the more trivial the utility of the item the more astounding the statement, the most extreme case being I have toilet paper made of gold that is worth more than a year of pay in back office. And since I do not/and can’t afford to partake in ass wiping with that much grandiosity, I referenced my lugage/small leather goods collection.
buddha, why dont you just admit you were an ass. numi’s post hit the nail on the head. Ok you wanted to be realistic, but you certainly didnt have to go about it the way you did. It doesnt help. Infact it just makes BO people trying to move up just think this is some ass who thinks highly of himself, and wouldnt head any advice written in that manner.
buddha Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- I referenced my lugage/small leather > goods collection. Are you a woman?
LBriscoe Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > buddha Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > I referenced my lugage/small leather > > goods collection. > > > Are you a woman? no this is why he is still a 24 yo virgin. Unfortunately mate, small leatner goods collections just dont impress the ladies
^ Whatever makes you sleep better at night.
^ See above for the retort of a man who’s been defeated, but wont quite admit it
It was not intended as a retort just as my intial comment was not intended as being offensive. You tried to paint your currently mundane job as something it’s not, if that helps you feel better about yourself, so be it. Honestly not sure who you are trying to “defeat” or even what “battle you are fighting”, because it surely is not me…Trying to win some adulation on an internet forum? Self vindication that your life is awesome?
Whatever buddha, I get money out the a$$. Now that’s some expensive $hit.
buddha, if you read one of my previous posts here to you I dont have a back office job, so go f yourself, I have no need to try and vindicate myself!!!
I will say this though, I have been posting in GD to get my mind off the upcoming L3, and the maddane, the humor you have provided me has done an excellent job of achieving what I desired…I don’t think I have heard the ‘virgin’ insults since high school…
buddha, what sort of high finance job do you work at?
I started in BO. I am now a portfolio manager. I completed the CFA after getting the job. I moved into the PM job in my mid-30s. My take on BO jobs: The hours and pay are fine - though there are periods when even the hours suck. I remember doing a summer of 8-8 five days a week. And the weekend too. But that was generally the exception. The thing that we should not forget about BO however, is that it is soul destroying for anyone with expectations or desire for other things in life. The work in and of itself need not be awful - you can interact with a wide range of people and often need good problem solving skills. That can be rewarding. It exercises the grey matter somewhat. But you will always be working on the plumbing in the world of financial services. What will get to you more than anything, if you have any ambition, is that there is a world out there that you are missing out on. It will fill you with envy that other people can call themselves traders, portfolio managers, corporate financiers. And you are a settlements analyst or a VP in fund accounting or something of that ilk. Here is the thing. I worked in BO in a place where you could have everything you wanted. Almost everyone I know who got on and progressed up the corporate ladder has a good life. They drive Porsches, BMWs, smart cabrios and the like. They have 30 days+ holiday a year. They own their own homes. These are the upsides. This is because you work in an industry that pays above average relative to the rest of society. Nice work for some. The downside is that your life will be the equivalent of financial services factory work. You turn up, do your bit of the process and move on. It will never be real finance though. That is why some want out and others not. The question is, what do you want?