What would the average CFA score on GMAT math?

I would suspect that given that there are so many engineer/IT/general backoffice finance wannabes enrolling into the CFA program in droves, that they would tend to raise the average CFA GMAT score (I do not have any statistical data to back this).

I think you mean people in third world countries where mathematics is taught by rote and liberal education isn’t considered important. They would be the ones raising the scores.

Don’t those you speak of make up a large portion of engineers/back office/IT etc.? With more maths education, they fashion themselves into better tools.

Dalitbrahmincfa Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Don’t those you speak of make up a large portion > of engineers/back office/IT etc.? With more maths > education, they fashion themselves into better > tools. You’re right, math is only a tool, it does not teach you to think critically, which IMO is an imparative in this industry.

Dalitbrahmincfa Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Don’t those you speak of make up a large portion > of engineers/back office/IT etc.? With more maths > education, they fashion themselves into better > tools. Actually most people with a business education (CFA, MBA whatever) are educated in this way. Most of the good critical thinkers go into law and academe.

I partially disagree with you. In the upper echelons of business, it is necessary to have a critical thinking skill set that would rival that of most of those in law or academe. I agree however the fiber of a good corporate foot soldier should be made up of rote memorization and mechanized execution.

The idea that CEOs in the aggregate are anything approaching intellectual, is ludicrous. Business is inherently anti-intellectual.

SeanC Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Dalitbrahmincfa Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > Don’t those you speak of make up a large > portion > > of engineers/back office/IT etc.? With more > maths > > education, they fashion themselves into better > > tools. > > You’re right, math is only a tool, it does not > teach you to think critically, which IMO is an > imparative in this industry. spelling is imperative too.

That certainly is a nice statement. We were origionally referring to a well developed critical thinking skill set which I believe can be developed in those who might not necessarily be intelligent. You do however raise an interesting idea. Do you have anything to substantiate your opinion?

It’s not about intelligence. A well developed ciritical thinking skill set is the natural result of a liberal education. Parents teach their kids to value liberal education long before it is time to choose english or history as a major, instead of economics or finance. The critical thinking skills necessary to write concise 30 page arguments on literary theory or diplomatic history are far greater than what is required to understand economic or financial concepts and regurgitate them on an exam. Nearly every undergrad business major I have ever met is completely oblivious to the value of liberal education. This also applies to the great majority of folks in MBA programs.

I have had a good share of liberal education. It is certainly more enjoyable than studying for a specific career path (unless you want to be a teacher, in which case it applies), but I don’t believe it prepares you any better for business than a business major. Could be that you will be a more interesting person as a result of studying politics, philosophy and economics. btw, I would say it is mostly about intelligence and the way a person’s mind is hardwired to think. And, I have no idea what you both mean by “critical thinking skills”.

I am a liberal arts college grad and must say that I agree w/ Danteshek about the value of this type of education, but must add one point: many of my coeds were incredibly succinct and graceful in analysis current events, literature, etc. in an academic sense… but a lack of ordinary logic and problem solving skills was often overwhelming. I think these are also important life and career skills, and often are only “learned” through brute force.

I’m not sure I am following you. You said that most critical thinkers go into law or academe and suggested that most of those with a business education, because they did not study history, english, or the like, are not capable of rigorous critical though. Then, you stated that business is anti-intellectual and that idea of a CEO being intellectual is ludicrous (was this supposed to relate to critical thinking?). In your next post you then declare that “It’s not about intelligence. A well developed ciritical thinking skill set is the natural result of a liberal education.” and follow this with several non-sequiturs; “Parents teach their kids to value liberal education long before it is time to choose english or history as a major, instead of economics or finance. The critical thinking skills necessary to write concise 30 page arguments on literary theory or diplomatic history are far greater than what is required to understand economic or financial concepts and regurgitate them on an exam.” Do you normally zig zag all over the place like this with your arguments? Perhaps I am not following you correctly because I lack your profound critical skills and did not have a blind reverence for liberal education pounded into my head since birth. Perhaps you are engaging in some sort of Derridan style obscurantism that we who studied business cannot possibly hope to follow. Can you please enlighten me?

hahaha…good post Dalitbrahmincfa… As an aside, I wonder, why is it always the case that you see lower classes trying to bash more privileged individuals, public school students trying to bash top private universities, and people from non-math or engineering backgrounds trying to bash the more quantitatively accomplished…yet you hardly ever see things happening the other way around? Hmmm… Anyone with true “critical thinking” skills would also be able to recognize the benefits of being facile with numbers. To suggest that math skills are unimportant or are for uncreative people is a total joke, because nothing could be further from the truth. As far as I’m concerned, any liberal arts college that promotes this type of tunnel vision isn’t much of a good college.

Danteshek Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > The critical thinking skills necessary to write > concise 30 page arguments on literary theory or > diplomatic history are far greater than what is > required to understand economic or financial > concepts and regurgitate them on an exam. > This is comparing apples to oranges. Have you actually read a math or economics thesis? Do you think these are written without “critical thinking skills”? My guess is that you’ve had limited exposure to economics or finance, which is fine – but putting those critical skills to good use would lead any rational individual to conclude that the “regurgitation” of concepts which you believe to be so pervasive in economics or finance is actually not more than what you’d see in the liberal arts/humanities fields, like those multiple choice polisci or history exams that everybody aces…

Why are you only concerned with math? The people who do well on the GMAT are those who are balanced. Why? The GMAT is often taken by international students whose native language isn’t English. They may score very well on the math but lower on the verbal. Case in point: Math: 48 (86th percentile) Verbal: 40 (90th percentile) Total: 720 (96th percentile) And 150 hours is obscene. 20-50 hours should do it. It’s not like the CFA, which requires a decent amount of memorization; the math is more like the SATs.

Numi, interesting thought. The privlidged individuals, top private university students & etc occasionally do engage in a sort of bashing the other way around. This most often takes on the form of a sneer or an icy glance. The “underprivleged” usually need to be more clever than that.

numi Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > > As an aside, I wonder, why is it always the case > that you see lower classes trying to bash more > privileged individuals, public school students > trying to bash top private universities, and > people from non-math or engineering backgrounds > trying to bash the more quantitatively > accomplished…yet you hardly ever see things > happening the other way around? Hmmm… The “more quantitatively accomplished” bash people who don’t “get” math all the time, especially in the last two years of undergrad and in the professional world. I think they are just gettin back at all the pseudo intellectuals in high school and early undergrad who quote nietzche, smoke dope and made fun of them. Life isn’t so short that you can’t do both if you are inclined.

I did prior to my MBA. Got 710. It is not very difficult but the test is adaptive- by that I mean you get difficult question once you solve the one given to you. English is weird as well- if that is your first language and you didn’t do good grammar in school, you will have to look at them. Reading comprehension is most challenging as there is lot of info- a CFA candi/member might not do well in that as it usually addresses organizational behaviour and strategy kind of issues. S

numi Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Danteshek Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > > The critical thinking skills necessary to write > > concise 30 page arguments on literary theory or > > diplomatic history are far greater than what is > > required to understand economic or financial > > concepts and regurgitate them on an exam. > > > > This is comparing apples to oranges. Have you > actually read a math or economics thesis? Do you > think these are written without “critical thinking > skills”? My guess is that you’ve had limited > exposure to economics or finance, which is fine – > but putting those critical skills to good use > would lead any rational individual to conclude > that the “regurgitation” of concepts which you > believe to be so pervasive in economics or finance > is actually not more than what you’d see in the > liberal arts/humanities fields, like those > multiple choice polisci or history exams that > everybody aces… Point taken. But I will say that I never took a multiple choice test in my 4 years in college. In fact I took very few exams. It was all papers. My friends in the econ department (mostly international students) were mostly just passing through to get a job.