Valores Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Bchadwick, > I still think China is a totalitarian country. > Until at least they officially get rid of the > communist ideology. I have mentioned that people > there “love Mao”. Do you love Obama? It’s a > typical expression of the totalitarian regime. People can be happy with their leaders in pretty much any kind of regime. I happen to like Obama, but that doesn’t mean that we live in a totalitarian regime. The big differentiator is how those who are unhappy with the regime are treated. In a democratic regime, I can yell “Down with Obama,” at a public gathering and the worst thing that’s likely to happen is that someone tells me I’m an idiot or make me feel like a jerk. In an authoritarian regime, if I yell “Down with Obama,” in a public space, someone will come and tell me that if I do that again, something bad will happen to me and/or my family. In a mildly authoritarian regime, they may only do it if it looked like my demonstration was likely to raise any sympathetic ears. In a totalitarian regime, someone will come and make sure that I say “Obama is wonderful,” or else something bad will happen to me and/or my family. They will do this whether or not I have been talking about Obama to anyone else, or have even thought much about Obama at all. The most common way to ensure ideological purity is to make it a condition for getting employment or food or going to school or any activity that requires my interacting with the state. > They do sincerely love Mao, although I never heard > that anybody loved Hu (almost like “who is Hu?”). Mao can be loved as a national symbol (he did, after all, mobilize China against the Japanese, while the KMT was simply trying to fight the Chinese Communists) without people having to love him for the Great Leap Forward, the Five Year Famine, the Cultural Revolution, and all the other things about him. It’s presumably easier to do it 30-70 years after the facts took place. > But even so, in order to succeed in this country, > better be a communist, and then be sure that your > private life is controlled like hell. And in some > remote places, the private lives of ordinary > citizens are also controlled. In big cities the > party leaders are too busy managing money, but go > to the provinces I agree that the provinces are still places where peoples lives are controlled, and where the regime is arguably totalitarian. There may be less of a forced ideological component to it than there used to be, and so it’s a bit of a judgement call as to whether it is truly totalitarian or merely authoritarian, but I’ll agree that it’s pretty repressive. So if your argument is that China is totalitarian because the provinces are totalitarian and that most of the population still lives in the provinces, I’ll agree with you. However, the China most people seem to be talking about these days is the China of the Southeast, Shanghai, and Beijing, and things there are more authoritarian in nature. You still need to be a jingoist in order to be part of the state apparatus, but that is consistent with authoritarianism.
The difference is that you “like” Obama, and there the people “love” Mao. Don’t you feel the difference? One can’t yell at a public place in China “down with Hu”. The only way from there is to the mental clinic.
Your argument about that people should “love” Mao for one thing he did, and not “love” him for the other thing, is a bit strange. The people in the totalitarian regime love the revolutionary symbol for his perfection. They are raised in belief that X is perfect. Ideology is very similar to religion.
I’m not saying that the Chinese should or should not love Mao. Personally, I think that he deserves some credit for unifying the country and mobilizing to fight the Japanese invasion that started in 1931, and historically, people who have played that role in a country are admired or perhaps even loved. At the same I am horrified by the other things I mentioned in my post on Mao and am happy that he is no longer running the place and that the current leaders, as authoritarian as they are, have rejected most of his policies. I’m just saying that just because people there seem to love Mao (I’m not fit to judge whether they do or don’t, but I’ll believe you on that) is not - in and of itself - evidence that China is presently totalitarian. China certainly was totalitarian while Mao was in power.
On Asian related topics, japan had another spat with South Korea today over a fisherman that entered islands that are disputed by the two countries, after japan and china had a very similar conflict several months ago. What I don’t understand is how the hell noone over there seems to know (or agree on) which land is theirs?
Was that Dokdo? It is really not that uncommon, these date from WWII. Japan also has similar disputes with Russia in the Kuril Islands.
Bchadwick, I will repeat once again, as I perfectly understand that you are no able to get it, it’s against your inner democratic self. People who love Mao, and of course not all them do, they love him a different love than that you describe. You say “he deserves some credit for X, and I am horrified by Y”. That’s not the definition of godly love that I try to describe. Forget Mao. I told you in modern China nobody is allowed to publicly doubt the current power. That’s pretty much totalitarian. We probably will never know how many people die in prisons for that right now.
Black Swan Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > What I don’t > understand is how the hell noone over there seems > to know (or agree on) which land is theirs? its because they’ve been at war for thousands of years and the land has been exchanged, in some cases, multiple times. so say 2,000 years ago the islands belonged to one dynasty, 500 years later another, 500 years later another, etc. some are meerly political - as this was -> http://www.indianexpress.com/news/chinas-land-mass-increases-by-1-000-sq-km-thanks-to-tajik/736574/0
Black Swan Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Alucard, > > So putting the argument aside for a moment, as a > whole, what’s the atmosphere like in Venezuela? > Like in terms of support for Chavez is it > realistically like 80/20, 50/50, 20/80? It’s > always hard to tell from anecdotal accounts and > media bias, reporters have a tendency to go > somewhere and interview 5 isolated extremists and > present that as the norm. didn’t mean to mislead but I’m not from Venezuela. marcus phoenix asked if I was, so I was just being stupid and went along with it. I was born and grew up in the Soviet Union, so that’s where my perspective comes from. From what I know, most Venezuelans are pretty brainwashed by Chavez and his policies and I was told that he has alot of support. I don’t think there is a way to guage the amount of support he receives as I doubt the people can really speak their mind and express themselves freely in that country, so some will say that they love the guy but really hate him. This is where the whole 80/20, 50/50 just doesn’t work. I also heard that he is personally involved in the drug trade with the neighbouring countries to the point where military aircrafts are used to transport the stuff.
mar350 Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > bchadwick Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > Russian mothers are better than Chinese > mothers. > > > i think MILF Hunter could give the best advice on > this one… I assume he pays the MILF. He is an ugly mofo with ginga beard. Gotta be paying.
Alucard Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > From what I know, most Venezuelans are pretty > brainwashed by Chavez and his policies and I was > told that he has alot of support. fwiw - my friends from argentina say he’s more of an icon than a ‘leader’ and that people are more proud of him for the fame he brings to the country than for his policies. he’s obiously corrupt, but does support his state and bring in tons of $$$$.
Valores Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Bchad, > I will repeat once again, as I perfectly > understand that you are no able to get it, it’s > against your inner democratic self. People who > love Mao, and of course not all them do, they love > him a different love than that you describe. You > say “he deserves some credit for X, and I am > horrified by Y”. That’s not the definition of > godly love that I try to describe. > Forget Mao. I told you in modern China nobody is > allowed to publicly doubt the current power. > That’s pretty much totalitarian. We probably will > never know how many people die in prisons for that > right now. I gave you definitions and examples of authoritarian and totalitarian and the differences. China falls into the authoritarian camp, as you perfectly described. You cannot publicly challenge an authoritarian regime without dire consequences; we agree on that. But you can go live live a semi-normal life if you just keep quiet and out of politics. That is not the case with a totalitarian regime, which won’t even let you “just keep quiet”. Are you saying that I don’t think China is repressive? Where did I say that? I really don’t get what this loving Mao bit that you brought is all about. The Chinese want to be proud of their country, 5000 years of history, and moving away from (and perhaps payback for) 150 years of humiliation at the hands of the West. Mao was the first step at regaining some pride, and so people who didn’t have to suffer through the crap and starvation he dished out may well feel comfortable worshiping him as “the father of modern China.” The current establishment doesn’t really mind, as they can claim descendency from that source of pride, and they even encourage it. Yes, it is repressive, it is authoritarian, it is still horrific in many ways, but it is not totalitarian. We love Abraham Lincoln, but forget that he sent armies to kill more Americans than in any war we’ve ever fought. He also suspended the protections of the constitution. Yet he’s on our currency (pennies and $5 bills), and most would describe him as our greatest President . How can we love a man that did that? Does that mean that we are totalitarian now? (Washington was also great, but Washington was not actually President when he accomplished the vast majority of his great things) Russians often love Ivan the Terrible, because he unified the country and gave it the centralized Power that Putin and Medvedev enjoy today. That doesn’t mean Russia is currently totalitarian, even though it is not democratic in any real way that matters. There are shades of grey here. Repressive regimes differ in style and degree. That doesn’t make repression tolerable, but it allows you to analyze what the consequences and opportunities (market opportunities or political opportunities) are and how regimes change over time. Democratic regimes can rigidify and collapse, authoritarian regimes can thaw and open, totalitarian regimes generally collapse at some point, but a few seem to be able to thaw into what are merely authoritarian regimes. China is the latter.
Most Venzualans I meet dislike Hugo Chaves, but I probably speak mostly with comparatively rich people who have their businesses and assets taken over by his government.
Greetings, members who like it in the rear here at the back office. Let me just state succinctly that: All “mothers” are superior.
Bchad,
You obviously oversimplify things. “but you can go live a semi-normal life (in the authoritarian regime)” Wrong. Majority of Chinese live normal lives. Moreover, in what you call totalitarian Soviet Union, majority of people lived normal happy lives. Ideology makes half of work. Access to money, o free stuff, the other half. Ideology actually makes the difference. China may be transitional now, but it’s still communist. That’s why I would say, it’s totalitarian. You should get it that there is no straight answer to whether it’s authoritarian or totalitarian. And actually totalitarian is just a case of authoritarian. Instead you try to make your opinion “authoritarian” and state it not as an opinion, but as a fact. Which is perfectly understandable, as we love facts about the matter we don’t have much knowledge about, very human. “Love” again. I am tired to try to explain you the concept. Totalitarian “love” has nothing to do with history, there is no historical assessment. The object of worship has nothing to do with his historical prototype. Not just “face on the money” Who told you Russians love Ivan the Terrible? Nonsense. Neither do they love Stalin, nor actually any political figure. Fed up with “loving”.
Ok Valores, you know best. I’ll throw out the State and Regime literature that’s accumulated over 40 years of academic studies and go with whatever you say.
An interesting response of a Chinese former kid: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3eMWkKo-GEs&feature=youtube_gdata_player It made me remember my childhood days, and I realized I was a “tiger” kid even though my parents were pretty relaxed about my study and development. They actually forced me to leave books and go play with kids. In spite of them, I spoke 2 languages by 2yo, having a family member who didn’t speak the language of other family members, though my parents never encouraged me speaking languages. I learned to read by myself by 4yo, though my parents strongly discouraged me as they worried about my eyes. They were right, their eyesight was always perfect, mine is horrible. I read all Dickens and Maupassan, among other classics, by 10. By 17 I think I read basically all most important classics of 18-19 century. I went and registered myself to the music school, piano class, when I turned 7, and let my parents know as they had to pay. My parents never knew what I did at school, nor did they check my homework, and I got straight "A"s in my high school certificate, the only one at graduation. I was on a self-imposed strict diet at 12-15yo, cooked healthy food separate from others, while my mom tried to tempt me with tarts. I did yoga, and showered in cold water. I even made my own clothes, which I thought was more original. At 15 I decided it was time to start working at summertime, my mom was running around talking to schoolmaster and together they tried to discourage me. But nevertheless I went to the city youth department and got a job in the bakery. Then I went to the most competitive college, and started having fun.
I mean “normal” fun, parties, drinking, etc. As a child I didn’t even play with toys, as my real fun was reading. So my childhood was happy as I did what I wanted to do most of all. And the summer job was just to experience “real life”. I always had money in excess of what I could spend as a kid, i.e. in my case I could buy any books I wanted.
^ I <3 U!
Mao is loved in China mostly because of Propaganda Department of Communist Party. It’s not that he was great of something, what he did killed tens of millions in Great Famine and executed many in name of cultural revolution, he was certainly not a figure to admire. Neither he is any contributor to modern china, his successors did all the work to bring china where it is today. What he did was constituted a strong communist party with propaganda machinery, and yes united china… on cost of what. Even Hitler could have been turned into a hero with his face on every bank note, if he wouldn’t have gone crazy about killing jews all around the world and thinking of world domination. When he took charge, Germany was in pathetic economic state where country was plagued with unemployment and debt which was much more than country’s assets. He brought country from that place to a healthy and booming economy and world superpower, although he killed jews for power. Had he not gone crazy at that point in time, he could have been easily made a hero irrespective of all the jews killed, all it needed was a propaganda dept. And yes, he had a vision for Germany too, he didn’t wanted to kill germans, where as Mao primarily killed chinease, while they compete with each other in number of people killed, discounting war causalities. And what about Pol Pot and what he did to combodia, and Lenin and Stalin, who killed and starved their own country men and still their countrymen praised them for long. And the riots that happened in India, and people who cause the riots are hero and people vote them again and again. And what about these Islamic states, you know Osama in many place is a hero, people “love” him there. The point is, people are stupid, if you attack them on their insecurities and inferiority and show them a rosy picture where their inferiority and insecurities doesn’t exist, they will do whatever for their stupid leaders, no matter how educated the people are, they are slave to their inferiority and insecurity. Who shows them the rosy picture? It’s the propaganda department. You won’t realize this until you see this happening around you, because without direct experience it’s hard to digest the generalized fact that… majority is stupid, and can be turned into puppets irrespective of their education level, you know communism wasn’t propagated by illiterates, it was propagated by elites and intellectuals, so never say education brings sanity, even Osama is a post graduate. Why America doesn’t have stupid people and propaganda shit is because Americans rarely have any insecurity or inferiority on which such people can capitalize upon, so it’s easy for Americans to argue thinking people are sane in choosing their “hero”, Americans have rarely seen what brainwashing really is.