Delhi gang rape and item number culture

From what I’ve heard there is a correlation betwen skin tones and caste (higher castes tend to be lighter skined), but it is not a strong enough correlation to be useful in making day-to-day summary judgements of people, even as an approximation.

What I read somewhere is that Dravidians who lived in India before the Aryan invasion from the north were darker skinned than the Aryans. When the Aryans established control, they also set up the caste system. As the conquerers, they gave themselves the nicer castes, not surprisingly. And because intermarriage was forbidden, genes did not mix very quickly between the castes. Presumably some mixing did happen over the centuries as the result of forbidden love, rapes, prostitution, etc…

Anyway, I read that a long time ago, and there are lots of Indians on this board who might correct me with more modern and/or accurate material, and if so, I would be happy to learn more.

what’s western style femmenazism?

All that stuff about brahmins and kshatriyas and stuff is completely irrelevant now and relegated to history books (studied it myself in school). Also, no negroid blood in south indians, they simply are dark skinned. A majority of them anyways - I personally know quite a few south Indians who’re very fair skinned. As GreatIndianRhino said, the only reliable way to determine anyone’s caste is by their last names. Trying to determine caste, region, etc. by complexion is nearly impossible because complexion can be quite homogenous across caste and class. In India, the government has declared certain castes and tribes as “Scheduled Caste/Scheduled Tribes/Other Backward Classes” (SC/ST/OBC). Most of them are identifiable on the basis of the last names. For instance, you might be coming from a very rich family, but if your last name (family name) falls under SC/ST/OBC, you can take advantage of the job/education reservations which the government has provided for these classes. Such a thing is in fact quite common here.

Let’s not drag this off topic to caste, that can be another discussion.

yes,but there are theories that there is some negroid blood in dravidians.maybe thats why some(very few) people have afro hair.

anyway,nothing will happen anytime soon but this is a good article on why this is important.

http://in.news.yahoo.com/blogs/thewatercooler/what-s-the-point---081223324.html

Interesting, slavery was made illegal in the United States in 1864 (+/- 1 year) and race has been pretty irrelevant since then over here too.

At some point, many Indians apparently converted to Christianity and adopted English names to escape their caste. That’s why you can see so many Indians with extremely British names like “John Thomas” or “Aston George”.

I really do see that computers and the internet are India’s greatest chance. It allowed India to become a viable economy in the first place and has now managed to repatriate many of India’s brightest people back to India and these people are leading the country forward.

The best driver of government transparency will be technology. I’d like to see half of the Indian government bureaucrats disappear thanks to automation. What a dream! Sure that will be unpopular with some. But man it would be a victory for the Indian people.

I think the internet is the biggest equalizer in education. Pretty much anything you’d ever need to know is available for free on the internet. As tech gets to more and more Indians and school children the country could leap frog.

When I moved to India in 2006 hardly anyone used the net. Whole companies would have single yahoo email addresses. I’m talking big companies too. Now even my driver has an gmail address and uses his smart phone to send me invoices and what not. The only people who haven’t figured out how to use email? The Indian Government. Why? Cause they’re scared. They don’t like having a record and the transparency involved.

As critical as I am about India, I do think it will have a bright future the more Indians get on board. However, i do suspect that very soon we will see parts of the government start to call for censoring. Someone will make a claim that internet porn is causing these events and they need to stop the internet. Why? Cause the net is a corrupt, unpopular politician’s worst nightmare. See China and Syria.

Given the tendency of the Indian population to kiss these politician’s royal asses, I’m really worried that Indian tech champions (say someone like infosys) won’t step forward as Google has in the United States, when parts of the US Government have tried to control the internet. I think we’ll likely see a Google in China version, where these guys make a corrupt bargain with the government to protect their businesses. So far I’m shocked that there hasn’t been rampant censoring of the net. But when I think about it, that’s just because the Indian government is that behind and slow. As soon as they feel threatened they’ll make it a priority.

I wasn’t aware of that.

Agreed. I wouldn’t say that nothing will happen anytime soon, not in this case. The case is being tried by a fast track court, there’s hope for (comparatively) quick justice. Or maybe it’s just wishful thinking, I dunno. I just hope that the rage and agitation that this has spurned doesn’t burn out soon. It has evoked a reaction that even the corruption movement didn’t. Makes me passionately want to do something tangible to make a difference, but I just don’t know what.

Amen.

censoring from the indian government has already been mentioned.

kapil sibal? or some such idiot proposed it and got hammered.yes it will become more popular among the govt but even if they set up controls it’ll be some flimsy shit like the one iran has where almost everyone still uses the net.

TOI- the shit newspaper that it is on todays front page had an article where they were complaining about the coverage from NYT and the Guardian.

as a whole this country isn’t ready for external criticism just yet and it shifts focus away.

Not ready, perhaps, but India is gonna have to get used to it as India is no longer getting the journalistic kid glove treatment that the West gave Indians, back when we patronized you as our “little brown brother.”

Did you notice that the UK has stopped giving aid to India this year?

Well they no longer think of Indians as victims. All in all, this is a good sign, I think. India has made it to the big leagues in The West’s eyes. But there are consequences for this, international media scrutiny. It means everythiing you do will be weighed and analyzed by foreign media. You don’t get a pass anymore. Just like everyone is critical of China or Russia, you can expect the same now.

The fact that this rape story is now a major news item in every newspaper on the planet means that the Indian Government actually has to do something about it and react to it. India has a lot of issues like this one that will need to be addressed as the country grows and becomes more prominent.

One thing, I’ve noticed is that India is very sensitive to foreign criticism - not sure why. Whereas other countries like Russia don’t give a damn what the foreign press says, In India if you make foreign headlines the government gets damn embarassed, and reacts.

How the government reacts can be a petulant denial that such a problem exists or some sort of bullshit half assed response that doesn’t address the problem in the first place. But it will get a reaction.

People often ask me if India is safe. I always tell them yes. I feel safer in Mumbai than pretty much any city that I’ve ever lived in and will walk around just about anywhere 24 hours a day. Mumbai feels safer, aside from the traffic, than New York. Aside from being run over, I really don’t worry about anything. I’ve lived here 6 years and have never had a single violent incident occur against me (well, aside from two terrorist attacks, which I don’t really consider part of day to day life). Foreign women have it differently, they get groped and harrassed pretty much all the time if they get in any proximity to Indian men. But its almost never violent.

There is a time, however, when India is not safe. It is when we are talking in groups of people or better yet mobs of people. In India, nobody openly commits violent crime alone in public. Nobody walks up to you with a gun and says, “give me your money, bitch” like the people on The Wire do. It just doesn’t really happen that often.

However, if a mob of people get together they will do pretty much whatever they like in India. There is a strange tacit belief in India that in a mob of people you are somehow not responsible individually for your actions or the mob’s actions. If the entire bus is raping the girl then it doesn’t really matter if you do too. The mobs in the London Riots collectively felt similarly and were surprised when this wasn’t the case.

When I see a mob of angry people in India I get away and quickly. If that mob wants to kill somebody, then the mob seems to be allowed to do so. Unless, one person can be singled out easily, no politician or policeman will actually go after the entire mob which might very well be somebody’s voting base. This is why, in the 90’s, we had all sorts of violent murders in Mumbai carried out by angry mobs, in a good old fashioned neighborhood genocide, and nobody was really prosecuted for their crimes.

The bus rape is a similiar situation where the mob believes it can do whatever it wants and get away with it.

There is also a strange belief in India that if the girl has already been “devirginized” once and and lost her purity then she is "spoiled’ and you can treat her body like that of a dead crack whore. A second rape somehow doesn’t matter, nor a third, nor a forth once the first one is out of the way. The subsequent gang rapes somehow don’t matter as much as the first one. The woman is effectively the house with a broken window after the first rape and everyone is allowed to desecrate her now that her purity is lost.

I’ll never forget the Indian guy on NBC’s “To Catch a Predator” who gets caught red-handed soliciting sex online from a 13 year old girl. His defense is, “She told me she is not a wirgin [sic] anymore,” implying that she is already “spoiled” and therefore having sex with her doesn’t matter even though she is massively underage. This logic seems to work in India, but not so much on US TV.

On the bus, If there were just one rapist then it would be easy to punish just that one guy. But because there were many it seems difficult to assign blame to the entire group and also difficult to decide how to equitably assign blame. Furthermore, for the rapists, who are sexually frustrated, they see themselves as somehow less culpable than if they were to go out and rape one woman on their own. The Indian herd mentality somehow means that this is acceptable behaviour. To the extent that nobody thought to stop them. Some apparently, even joined in. I doubt that these guys would be willing to commit the crime on their own.

The message that your average North Indian male needs to get from this, at least the one that the media is hoping that people will get, is that, “Yes, you are responsible if you are involved in this in any way. Equally responsible as the first guy.”

lol…when did the west ever give india a free pass?

i think that criticism is great as long as it brings change.I also believe that indian media is sufficient for that now.the problem with western media influence is it gives the politicians some shit excuse.the hazare protests along with the power plant protests were blamed on western capitalists wanting to destabalize india.wtf?

Most whites indians come across are patronizing idiots or hippies looking for cultural enlightnment.there hasn’t been any portrayal of a foreigner with some sense who understands where we’ve been and where we’re going.cross cultural education programs/volunteer programs among college aged kids which are trans-continental are increasing which is great.more of that please.

Indian’s are sensitive because we don’t have so much of an identity yet. our achievements/culture are of centuries gone by which most people have only read and this place is still largely pre-ironic. we’re sensitive becuase we also have idiots like oprah winfrey splashing their views on our tv. did you see her documentry when she visited that family from the slum? “oh you still eat with your hands?”. she’s a goddamn media mogul…you would think she would have a bit more tact. the concept of being ‘indian’ has also barely sunk in.most people still identify as tamils,mallus,kashmiris,marathis,punjabis etc.

I also agree with you that we are a sexually repressed society which i just can’t get. I despise these politicians/media etc for imposing this sort of weird hybrid culture on us. At the height of our civilization we were one of the most sexually liberated places on earth. We gave the world the goddamn kamasutra and engraved it in our places of religious worship so wtf do they mean when they say some things arent indian culture.and wtf is indian culture anyway a tamil has more in common with a algerian than with a punjabi.

but whatever i think the west should just leave this place alone for another decade.doesn’t look like it’ll happen though.

and just like that today’s normal.people have gone back to their lives and 2 months from now the media will report that they were hanged in tihar jail. The chips are getting stacked though,little by little and I hope this country can become what it was all those years ago in my lifetime.

edit-most of the above was referring to the current/older generation.i think the next generation coming through maybe in 15-20 years will change the dynamics of india completely.ethinc barriers would have been completely broken down and everyone will start pulling in the same direction

edit-

I’m just glad India is getting pissed off at this. I hope they stay pissed off and attitudes change. Hopefully it can be a tipping point. Or the way gender ratios are going, there will not be enough women to gang rape.

Not enitrely true, It’s acutally a throw back to colonial times alot of those people actually have whiteboys somewhere in their family tree.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Indian

One of my closet friends growing up and even to this day is an indian girl whose parents were from Bangalore via Kuwait. Her and her family all have Portugese first and last names because they have have Portguese family/grandparents on both sides.

Not enitrely true, It’s acutally a throw back to colonial times alot of those people actually have whiteboys somewhere in their family tree.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Indian

One of my closet friends growing up and even to this day is an indian girl whose parents were from Bangalore via Kuwait. Her and her family all have Portugese first and last names because they have have Portguese family/grandparents on both sides.

Forgive my ignorance but I thought Indians have a special god/deity of sex. If a culture has a special god dedicate to sex affairs, why is the population sexually repressed? Based on my limited knowledge of the romans, I thought special god of sex equals sex orgies and hella gang bangs(no disrespect). Isn’t this the case in India?

Good question. It is not well understood, and it likely indicates India was less repressed in earlier centuries. Many westerners have wondered why the land of the karma sutra and erotic religious poetry can be so regressive.

Less than 24 hours after the girl’s death, another girl was molested in Delhi in bus at night.

http://in.news.yahoo.com/teenage-girl-molested-dtc-bus-attacker-arrested-140003526.html

Thank God, the girl was saved. India is never going to change.