bostonkev, it’s not that you’re not making your point clear. it’s just that it’s not a particularly relevant or meaningful observation. nobody cares that you are “not too impressed at all” with folks that graduated from top-tier schools. they probably aren’t too impressed with your poorly defended hypotheses either, but just don’t care enough to argue with you. why does it always seem to be the case that those from lesser-known schools bash the top schools in a manner that isn’t reciprocated?
farley013 Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Agree with numi. Add to the fact that as a fund of > funds manager I will not invest with a hedge fund > manager who does not have a strong pedigree, no > matter how good their returns are. In that case, I think a better approach is to look at their GMAT, GRE, and/or IQ scores. I know many idiots with strong educational pedigrees. Also, you might consider the value of a standard benchmark like CFA. > I know it’s not > the most scientific approach to the process but it > is much easier to justify to clients investing in > someone with a Harvard MBA than someone with a > degree from a no-name college. Unfortunately, that makes sense.
numi Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > why does it always seem to be the case that those > from lesser-known schools bash the top schools in > a manner that isn’t reciprocated? Simple. Dumber and less qualified people from those brand name schools can more easily get the spots that smarter and more qualified people from lesser known schools cannot get. Hopefully in the coming years, a standard benchmark like the CFA will start to do away with this nonsense. Also, I’m in Boston, so I wouldn’t say that I’m from a lesser-known school.
>I know many idiots with strong educational pedigrees. Again, that’s the exception, not the rule. You can also say you know a lot of rich people who are unhappy with their lives, a lot of good looking people with self-esteem issues, and a lot of smokers who can run sub-3 hour marathons. For everyone one of these occurences there are multiples more who fit the standard and not the exception.
farley013 Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > >I know many idiots with strong educational > pedigrees. > > Again, that’s the exception, not the rule. You can > also say you know a lot of rich people who are > unhappy with their lives, a lot of good looking > people with self-esteem issues, and a lot of > smokers who can run sub-3 hour marathons. For > everyone one of these occurences there are > multiples more who fit the standard and not the > exception. True, I agree.
numi Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > bostonkev, it’s not that you’re not making your > point clear. it’s just that it’s not a > particularly relevant or meaningful observation. > nobody cares that you are “not too impressed at > all” with folks that graduated from top-tier > schools. they probably aren’t too impressed with > your poorly defended hypotheses either, but just > don’t care enough to argue with you. > > why does it always seem to be the case that those > from lesser-known schools bash the top schools in > a manner that isn’t reciprocated? And to add to this numi, you are pretty much set for life with your ivy league background despite having failed Level 2 and without any other qualifications. You do not even have to be good to advance (though I’m not making any statement about your ability in particular since I don’t know you). For every one of people like you who just don’t “understand” (but with such a degree), there are hundreds or even thousands of people who are smarter and more qualified than you are who will never get the opportunities you have. This is my point and I think it is a very relevant and meaningful one.
These kinds of comments really annoy me. You’re basically discounting all the hard work he and everyone else who gets into a top tier school put in for 12+ years of their lives to get to that point. As much as you would like to paint the picture of “anyone could get into an Ivy League school if they really wanted to,” it doesn’t work that way. Even as a state school graduate I can appreciate the amount of effort it takes to get into and graduate from a top school. To somehow imply that things are handed to you on a silver platter or that you don’t deserve recognition of your achievements because you happened to “choose” to go to an Ivy League school seems painfully misguided to me. If you are afforded any advantages in business or in life because of your pedigree, it is a reflection of an appreciation that you have already proven that you can be a top achiever and have already been vetted by highly credible institutions, not because there is some secret society or members-only club that requires a sweater vest and a Harvard diploma to get into.
How are you so sure all these thousands and thousands are so much smarter than numi? I do not think numi said he is set for life due to his degree, more that he has had access to opportunities due to his degree. Let’s see i mean there is enough threads with his bg discussed; He clearly went to a top school, so he must have worked hard at a younger age to set himself up. He landed at a top BB firm out of school, so he must have worked hard to get solid grades/ECs/etc. He moved to another firm or so, so he must have worked hard again to make the switch. Then look at the history of this forum, how much questions, preparation, etc he did to totally bust his ass to beat out top bankers for a top job. All I see there is a track record of a guy working real hard. Compare that to some dude who sits there and just studies all day to pass Level 2. Now let’s see if numi didn’t goto his top-tier school. He went to a decent state school, due not wanting to go or not busting his ass to get into a top-tier. I am sure he would have still worked hard to get top grades, then he would work twice as hard to network and to get into a good firm. Then the rest of the journey looks the same. So maybe he will not end up at the exact same top job, but there is many shops run by guys from not top-tier schools. Worse case he lands in a weaker job works his butt off and goes onto a top MBA program. Then similar opportunities are available to him too. The idea is that going to the school he did showed from the beginning he had the work ethic and intelligence to succeed, since then he has shown the same qualities. These thousands and thousands you speak of chose to not take advantage of this situation for whatever reason. Maybe if the thousands and thousands you speak of instead of sitting there saying they dont get the same opportunities, worked twice as hard and focused internally to get the same opportunities, they would not be where they are.
farley013 Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > These kinds of comments really annoy me. You’re > basically discounting all the hard work he and > everyone else who gets into a top tier school put > in for 12+ years of their lives to get to that > point. > As much as you would like to paint the > picture of “anyone could get into an Ivy League > school if they really wanted to,” it doesn’t work > that way. Even as a state school graduate I can > appreciate the amount of effort it takes to get > into and graduate from a top school. To somehow > imply that things are handed to you on a silver > platter or that you don’t deserve recognition of > your achievements because you happened to “choose” > to go to an Ivy League school seems painfully > misguided to me. Okay, I definitely admire that too…believe me! I actually had to go through a similar process to get into two service academies (after getting interviewed by Kerry and Kennedy’s office), had high SATs, did 10+ clubs, etc. I subsequently left because I wasn’t cut out for that lifestyle (and debatably because I was a pussy…though there were other reasons). On top of that, I also got a full Army and Navy ROTC scholarship that could have been applied to Harvard or MIT if I chose not to go to that service academy. > If you are afforded any > advantages in business or in life because of your > pedigree, it is a reflection of an appreciation > that you have already proven that you can be a top > achiever and have already been vetted by highly > credible institutions, not because there is some > secret society or members-only club that requires > a sweater vest and a Harvard diploma to get into. I think there are very smart people who go to these institutions, just that the original course of the thread was people admiring brand name institutions simply for the name (it seems). On top of this…I can agree with 95% of the things you say.
Well said adebone.
adehbone, I totally agree with you. Read my quick personal background in the previous post. > I actually had to go through a similar process to get into two service academies > (after getting interviewed by Kerry and Kennedy’s office), had high SATs, > did 10+ clubs, etc. I subsequently left because I wasn’t cut out for that lifestyle > (and debatably because I was a p.ussy…though there were other reasons). > On top of that, I also got a full Army and Navy ROTC scholarship that could > have been applied to Harvard or MIT if I chose not to go to that service academy. (also got into those service academies in the first rounds too…one before high school senior year and the other before christmas break of senior year) Let me clarify, I’m pretty much in the same freakin’ boat as numi!!! If you look through my posts through the search function, you will see what type of personality I have and what views I hold.
@ farley013 I’ll be getting a PhD in theoretical physics in two years and hopefully will have completed all the 13 tests required of CFA[3], FRM[1], CAIA[2], PRM[4], and CMT[3] by that time…you want to network? @ adehbone I plan on applying to Harvard business school in 5-10 years after getting experience (during which time I’m sure I’ll work harder than ~99.99% of the population)…I took some practice GMATs (more like destroyed them) and I can get much higher than the average of top B-schools.
I can’t wait to show my friends this thread, they will laugh their arses off and have to be taken to the emergency room when they see how I am perceived and the posts I write anonymously online.
adehbone Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > All I see there is a track record of a guy working > real hard. Compare that to some dude who sits > there and just studies all day to pass Level 2. Yeah, that dude is slacking there while he “just studies ‘all day’ to pass Level 2” …something that shows he does NOT have a “track record of a guy working real hard.” WTF are you saying man? It makes no sense! If you submitted that type of logic to a physics journal, they’d reject it and laugh at you…I would if I received that draft. ACK, I can’t help it…sorry if this offends anyone…(I don’t mean any ill will, also high on caffeine since I’ve been studying my ass off for the thousands of pages of FRM). This reinforces to me that the standard is passing level 2 (and level 3)… something that someone from a brand name institution cannot necessarily do since they either are: 1. not smart enough 2. didn’t work hard enough Also, my cynical mind says that some people (who have studied and attempted the exams) might play off and minimize the value of the knowledge of the exams, of the charter, and act like they don’t care since “DEEP DOWN INSIDE” they know how stupid they will look if they fail the CFA levels multiple times. It’s an easy exit if you have a very good alternative plan (based on, ahem, the degree)…again, something that people of non-brand name schools do not have the luxury of…they have to be better and work harder just to get into the game that those brand name people get so much more easily. Again, I apologize in advance for being an arse (I’m not usually this way)…but reading through adehbone’s nonsensical phrase right there enraged me and my logical mind.
K, I can’t get to sleep, I’m annoyed, and I figure that I’d kill a bit of time…so I will dissect all the points that adehbone brought up. farley013, I can definitely see your points…your view is not mutually exclusive with mine. adehbone Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > How are you so sure all these thousands and > thousands are so much smarter than numi? I’m not sure at all. If you read that a bit closer, my phrase was “For every one of people like you…” So that doesn’t refer necessarily to numi. Read more carefully dude. > I do not think numi said he is set for life due to > his degree, I never said that numi said that, I am saying that people like numi are pretty much set for life with that degree. Read more carefully dude. > more that he has had access to > opportunities due to his degree. Let’s see i mean > there is enough threads with his bg discussed; That’s exactly my point, he has access to more opportunities due to that degree. Read more carefully dude. > He clearly went to a top school, so he must have > worked hard at a younger age to set himself up. And my point is that some people do not have the same background and opportunities to set themselves up. A friend of mine taught SAT to the children of an oil executive, who went to the prestigious(aka expensive) Deerfield academy (where Jordan’s King Abdullah went)…you think these kids have to work that much harder to get in (and not have a huge 6-figure check backing their application up…with a 7-figure or more anticipated check in the future)? Do you think a 130 IQ kid from a poor family and a poor neighborhood has the same chance to get into Harvard as a 115 IQ kid whose parents are millionaires like those kids my friend tutored? > He landed at a top BB firm out of school, so he must > have worked hard to get solid grades/ECs/etc. Not busting on numi, since I dont know him, but most of those brand name schools have grade inflation more than a thanksgiving day float. They should multiply that GPA by a factor of 0.8 to 0.9 to get the true normalized GPA. Furthermore, solid grades are not necessarily correlated with getting a good job at a top firm right out of school…there’s a thing called networking. > He moved to another firm or so, so he must have > worked hard again to make the switch. Not busting on numi, switching firms happen all the time…you can get fired and THEN switch firms, ZOMG, LOL. You are making a ridiculously weak argument. > Then look at > the history of this forum, how much questions, > preparation, etc he did to totally bust his ass to > beat out top bankers for a top job. How much weight would that preparation actually mean if he went to U. of state school X? Also, do you think they’d hire the state school kid over numi if they did the exact same thing? > All I see there is a track record of a guy working > real hard. Compare that to some dude who sits > there and just studies all day to pass Level 2. See previous post about how ridiculous this comment is…enough to have me analyze your points one by one and see how flawed they are. These are probably the two stupidest sentences I’ve ever read on AnalystForum. TAGS (for search/google purposes): stupid, dumb, studying, studies, Level 2, track, record, own, pwn, ownage, pwnage > Now let’s see if numi didn’t goto his top-tier > school. He went to a decent state school, due not > wanting to go or not busting his ass to get into a > top-tier. I am sure he would have still worked > hard to get top grades, then he would work twice > as hard to network and to get into a good firm. > Then the rest of the journey looks the same. No crap. You seem to spend your time defending numi by obvious and stupid points. I am talking in generalities. Read more carefully dude. > So maybe he will not end up at the exact same top > job, but there is many shops run by guys from not > top-tier schools. Worse case he lands in a weaker > job works his butt off and goes onto a top MBA > program. Then similar opportunities are available > to him too. Yep, it’s an easier path for the guy with the brand name institution. > The idea is that going to the school he did showed > from the beginning he had the work ethic and > intelligence to succeed, since then he has shown > the same qualities. These thousands and thousands > you speak of chose to not take advantage of this > situation for whatever reason. > Maybe if the thousands and thousands you speak of > instead of sitting there saying they dont get the > same opportunities, worked twice as hard and > focused internally to get the same opportunities, > they would not be where they are. See previous points. Beat dead horse. Read more carefully dude.
BostonKev, how old are you? Did you go to a state school? I think everyone’s stereo typing here. There are some people that are probably in Ivy league schools, because their parents went there (George W. Bush). There are also people there that work very hard. There are also very smart people who can’t get into Harvard or Princeton. Did you guys here about that asian guy with a perfect SAT score and couldn’t get into Princeton? He claimed discrimination, which is another story in itself. There are also very bright people at low tiered undergraduate schools, who probably can do well and get into a top mba program later. However, I don’t think getting into or graduating from an Ivy League school is a sure way to get a good job. Although, it does help a lot and increases the odds. Are there a lot of CFA’s unemployed now? 
CFAdummy, read my previous posts (carefully) and/or use search function…sigh…
I do have to agree w/ the point that bostonkev made about some VERY intelligent ppl just not being aware of benefits/requirements of getting into an Ivy or similar. My high school was 90% immigrant/ 1st generation and although it had the typical distribution of intelligence, most did not recognize the value of a brand name education. I did not know of a single person that took an SAT prep course, and very few (<20%) sat for the exam. There were no guidance counselors to assist in the application process, and I would venture to say that parents were not particularly helpful. Those who who had the family support fell into the common (stereotype coming…) so-cal asian framework of ~800 math/ ~600verbal SAT and a list of clubs that would hopefully suffice for the UCLA/Berkley dream or at least get them to UCI. The idea of of a 40k/yr education was out of the question when you can live at home and commute to UCLA for 14k/yr. No one realized Ivy-esque schools typically end up being cheaper since they have so much $ to give away… no one considers ideas like “networking” or ROI. There is an overwhelming belief that if one works hard and get out of UCLA w/a degree their doors will fly open and red carpets will roll because in their eyes they are unique (in comparison to the group they are exposed to day in and day out). We all know however that they are about as unique as a Indian IT guy applying for Stanford. I’m digressing here, but there are many, many incredibly intelligent and hardworking people who at a young age were not in an environment that offered this kind of invaluable knowledge.
I think it’s safe to assume that Ivy League types are by and large pretty intelligent. They also have an advantage of a cohort of friends and colleagues and an alumni network that are likely to be 1) intelligent, and 2) well connected. If you’re in business, that’s a valuable asset to have over and above general intelligence. The issue comes around to how justified it is to assume that non-Ivy types aren’t [as] intelligent. This is clearly not justified, and there are plenty of non-Ivy types that have impressed me immensely with their intelligence, drive, and capabilities. So if you see someone that doesn’t have an Ivy pedigree, it’s important to look for evidence of intelligence and not just dismiss it as “well, they didn’t go to a top school.” The real challenge is when you have a stack of 200 resumes to whittle down to 5 or 6 and you have to do this in a time efficient way. Despite my nice credentials, I also get cut out of this process way faster than I feel I ought to be, but I also understand the pressures that people are under. But when faced with a physical person networking in front of me, I always try make sure to give them an opportunity to demonstrate their capabilities. So if you’re not Ivy, or something like it, the networking method is definitely the best.
First off, thanks farley013 and adehbone for your positive comments. I respect your viewpoints and agree with both your assessments on issues pertaining to the importance of pedigree and reputation in the workplace, as well as the fact that neither of these things, however important they might be, are substitutes for hard work and dedication in life. As I see this thread today, bostonkev has evidently made this into somewhat of a personal matter, and while I generally keep such personal issues off this forum, I feel compelled to respond. bostonkev, I’m certainly not a poster boy for the “Ivy League” or similar institutions, and have no desire to be either. However, since you’ve made somewhat of a personal example out of me, I’d like to point out a few issues. I, like most graduates of HYPS and other such schools, came from a middle-class background. Contrary to your personal beliefs and misconceptions, most of my classmates also hail from the middle-class and had to work for things. Commitment and perseverance started at a young age and continued throughout our lives, and it isn’t as if we were fed from silver spoons. Maybe you know a few people like this, but I think they are the exception rather than the rule. You may think that an Ivy League degree is some type of “big ticket” – and maybe it is – but on some level, it’s also very well-deserved. If you think most of these people eased their way into such a university because of their financial, political, or cultural background, I would have to disagree. As for my failing Level II, I have no personal misgivings about that (but thank you for bringing that up and trying to make an example of my shortcomings). But let me say this – while you were trying to pass CFA exams that are hardly a substitute for work experience and trying to get your foot in the finance industry, I attempted to write those same exams while also initiating my own coverage on the sell-side and pursuing a career in private equity, both of which I have achieved. Simultaneously, I underwent microsurgery on my lower back, but I never used this as an excuse not to go for Level II. The outcome on the CFA exam wasn’t as I expected, but it had nothing to do with “smarts” or lack of personal motivation. Rather, I had many things going on in my life – probably more than you can even imagine. Fortunately, I am much healthier today than I was a year ago and have also achieved certain professional goals that have brought me a level of satisfaction. In the meantime, you still don’t have a job in finance and have not yet passed a CFA exam either. What does that say about you? Also, bostonkev, you constantly talk about how people at the top schools somehow aren’t as smart or hardworking as they’re perceived to be. I don’t know how you get this information, but your gross generalizations reek of jealousy and personal insecurity. Since you made an example out of me, I’ll respond with an example of myself. I graduated with two degrees with honors from college, while simultaneously pursuing athletics at an NCAA Division-I school. At the same time, I shared whatever “privileges” I had growing up by mentoring local junior high schoolers in at-risk communities. “Idiots” (as you put it) such as myself are at least smart enough to know that these types of achievements are not handed to you on a silver platter – they require many years of dedication, perseverance, and a competitive drive that people like you will never understand. At the end of the day, I don’t care whether you went to an Ivy league school or a state school or some community college, much less whether you’re white, black, yellow, or purple. I also don’t care whether or not you’re impressed by certain people’s backgrounds on this board – you don’t know most people here, and it’s not like you’re in a position to make a hiring decision anytime soon. But I think that rather than trying to disparage people from universities and professional backgrounds that are different from your own, you ought to recognize that most people need to work hard in order to get anywhere in life, and coming from a more privileged background doesn’t exempt you, me, or anyone from busting our asses every day. Maybe you know one or two people who somehow skimped their way through a top college because their parent was a president or a senator, but quit making such broad generalizations. Nobody here is looking down upon people with state or public educations, yet evidently you still feel this incessant drive to rip on “Ivy leagues” and talk a big game that you can’t even back up (you wrote, “I’ll be getting a PhD in theoretical physics in two years and hopefully will have completed all the 13 tests required of CFA[3], FRM[1], CAIA[2], PRM[4], and CMT[3] by that time…you want to network?”). Nobody here is asking you to prove yourself, and it’s unfortunate that you lack so much self-confidence. I sincerely hope that you will get the counseling you need in order to get that huge chip off your shoulder. Perhaps at that point, you will become more open-minded to people of different academic backgrounds and realize that the reason others may be more accomplished than you is not solely because of their pedigree, but because they work harder than you. Hopefully that will inspire you to work harder for yourself and spend less time on an internet forum bashing people you don’t know. Best of luck.