Advice for someone in my situation

Water Cooler
#1

Greetings!

Was wondering if I might be able to get some good advice regarding my situation. My background is definitely a bit unconventional. I’m a 27 year old American living in China and teaching English at a university. I don’t particularly want to stay in education, but I very much enjoy living in China and have no plans of leaving for a while. I have no direct experience in finance or accounting, but my degree is in business, and I’ve always enjoyed math and finance. What do you think about someone like myself trying for a CFA? I’d like to work in finance internationally. I’m geographically very flexible and can speak Chinese well. I know being 27 years old and not having experience yet will hold me back, but I’m a modest guy and very willing to pay my dues, whether that means doing an internship or whatever first.

My plan is to teach at my college for one more year (already signed on) and spend my free time studying for the December exam. I’m hoping that by pursuing my CFA and, hopefully, passing level 1 I can make my transition to finding an entry level job a little less painful. Any advice is appreciated.

Anyway, thanks for taking the time. Nice little community you got here.

#2

welcome lets start with a question . where did you get the notion that the CFA will be an entry ticket into a nice finance job? also given the many candidates who are also trying to get the same jobs and the tens of thousands of people who have passed the CFA exams already also trying to get the same jobs what do you think is your edge over them?

#3

Thanks for your post, iteracom. Good question.

First off, I really don’t want to give the impression that I think earning the CFA will get me a nice finance job right out the gate. I’ve poked around this site a bit over the last couple days and seen that people are really working hard and paying their dues to move up, including people that have already passed level 3. It’s definitely competitive.

What I think makes me unique is my international experience. Most young people have maybe done some traveling, but haven’t lived and worked in a foreign country, especially China. I can speak Chinese and have an understanding of Chinese culture, which is fairly rare for an American. I’m sure the techincal requirements of the job come first, but I thought that these supplementary skills, which aren’t easily acquired, might make me a more attractive candidate to some people. I’m not sure though, that’s why I figured I’d ask.

Second, I’m more or less looking for any job that could, eventually, allow me to get my foot in the door. Like I said, I’m willing to start low, and was simply wondering if the other skills I mentioned, paired with the ambition one displays in pursuing a CFA and a good work ethic, might put me in a situation where I can find good work.

Hope this helps. Thanks for any feedback.

#4

I am 27 years old and have no finance experience either, my interest in the subject is at best a fraction of what it once was but if you are serious about it, maybe the easiest solution is to go back to uni, get a msc in finance/economics then go from there?

#5

Thanks for the post Alladin.

At this point I really have no interest in going back to school full-time, and that’s what really appeals to me about the CFA. I need to work. I think that going back to school and not working full-time for another two years would put me in a more disadvantageous position than I am now when I graduate. If I go back to school in the future, which is possible, I’ll probably go the MBA route, and that’s only if I can get worthwhile work experience that I can use the degree to build on.

#6

i say get the charter and approach the university you work at about developing a cirriculum geared towards preparing students for the CFA. Finance is not a growth industry. churning out charterholders who think it’s their ticket to a PM job at Fidelity is, at least for now.

This makes me wonder: has the AF community always been this cynical? I’m sure it’s partially the times we’re in, but I wonder what the response would have been here say 10-15 years ago.

#7

Muffin-

I really cringe at the notion that I gave you the impression that I think I’m a unique snowflake. Everyone, please throw this assumption out the window, as I’m a very modest, realistic guy whose just looking for some advice.

As for the “jabronis” comment, well, that irks me a bit, as I’ve used my time here very productively, doing everything in my power to learn the language, culture, network, etc. That is a long, slow, embarrassing, painful process. I’m not sure how you meant it, but it bothers me a bit to be thrown into the same group as a guy who got canned and came here to hit on girls and get drunk.

#8

dont take muffin seriously…just look at his other comments

#9

FreshAir,

We´re not dissimilar. I´m and American with a degree in English who entered ¨the industry¨with zero experience or finance knowledge. I work in Asia (India). I persued the CFA because I like to learn and thought it would be a good way to supplment my knowledge. But, I already had the job. DO NOT WASTE YOUR TIME GETTING THE CHARTER FIRST. GET THE JOB FIRST; THEN THINK ABOUT THE CHARTER.

The difference might be that I entered it in 2006, a time when there were probably more opportunities. However, Asia is still by and large in a bull market from what I can see.

So, go get someone to hire you. Then worry about the CFA. Spend every moment you would spend on the CFA getting someone who has the ability to hire you to like you and hire you. I would find some average white guy expoat manager working at a company that you want to work at in a pub somewhere and convince him to hire you. This shit still happens all the time in Asia. Especially, if you are the right type of old boy.

I know a dozen Etonians (Englands fanciest prep school) that are dumb as dirt but manage to get hired anyway at buldge bracket firms. Sure, they don´t expect huge salaries at first, but a few years down the line they are doing well. Then they transfer back to London making a killing. I´ve seen it done, over and over again.

So, get to the pubs or the expat meetings. Demonstrate that you are not a unique snowflake but a cheap white guy that they wouldn´t mind working with. If the guy has the ability to hire you, he probably will. Sometimes its just nice to have more people around like yourself.

#10

wow this the kindest chicken post on AF i think.

#11

FreshAir,

Keep in mind as you look at some posts the following: 1) There has been a good amount of cynicism in our industry in the last few years due to the crisis and recession, with SOME areas of investments getting hit harder than others and 2) I believe that many on AF think that the industry exists to generate jobs only, i.e., many do not have an entrepreneurial sense about their own destinies and are setting themselves up to become various degrees of moderately- to highly-paid desk slaves. Look, let’s say you did the CFA and are good enough to pass all levels and try to get your foot in the door somewhere for the work experience element. Let’s say you do this and the 4 year requirement is met when you are 33 or so (let’s add some variability). The whole thing doesn’t work out, let’s say, and you hate investments. I think it’s pretty cool and unique to have regardless, and you’d still be young. Don’t buy all the hype by some on the forum who think that 30’s = death. Believe me, in today’s world, the jobs worth having pay more for gray hairs – many saw how young bucks really didn’t know what was up prior to the crisis. Today, when I meet with PMs and analyst teams, I notice that many of these careers are actually reaching “escape velocity” (i.e., where the guy gets the job where he can say he “made it”) in the guy’s late 30’s well into their 40’s (sure, there’s the story here and there of the 20’s HF manager rock star, but I consider the vast majority proportion of what I see on a daily basis). I look at people with diverse but mutually applicable backgrounds as the most interesting, and frankly, a person like that has fishing nets set up in multiple ponds, not just one pond (if you like, they have multiple call options at their disposal). Contrast this with the person who is 100% invested in the outcome of one industry or worse, a sub-field…I feel bad for that person.

I feel for your case, as I myself am a former educator who made the permanent transition to industry. It gives me some sense of security in knowing that if this whole industry goes down, I have a Plan B! Really, I think my point is, nobody here knows all the answers and to some degree, all of our personal futures are dependent on what we do every day to make them happen. Chance and circumstances are factors, but if you don’t do the work and take the path, you’ll never know.

#12

Dude. the finance world in 2006 and now is a completely different world. there were far more opportunities, Even asian banks are cutting back these days. I’m not sure about India, where you are. But mainland China isn’t the bull market it was.

To the OP, you seem like a nice guy. I think passing L1 will give you a good basic knowledge of finance. But as long as you don’t hang your hopes on landing a job because of it. Good luck

#13

CFA is really geared towards career advancement for people who are already in the industry, the only time I think a guy should take it to “break in” is if he is very early in his career. If you want to break into finance, you’d be better off getting an MBA or an MS in Finance.

You should also seriously consider a backup plan if you don’t get into finance. I can’t emphasize that enough.

#14

Thanks for all of your responses. I’m really glad I made this thread.

Turd - that’s an interesting idea. Something like that might be possible at a bigger name school than mine.

Chicken - interesting how similar we are. You’re right, there’s no getting around the need to network. The one disadvantage I have is that I work in a small town where I’m literally one of only four foreigners, all of which work at the college, haha. Shit. I do have time to travel in the summer (3 months) and could spend that in a bigger city trying to make contacts. Anyway, I’m glad you’re finding success working in India. That sounds really cool.

DOW - when I saw your user name I figured you were going to tear me a new asshole, but your post pleasantly surprised me. Thanks for the encouragement. I’m glad to know that 30s =/= career death, as that’s something that’s started to increasingly wear on me as of late.

Itera - thanks. In a lot of ways I just want to learn about something that I find interesting during my free time this year.

Palantir - thanks. I guess English teaching is always there if I can’t make things work…

Anyway, the responses here have been very mixed, so I want to ask what I probably should have from the start: what is a good line of work in the business world (including outside of finance) that I could supplement Chinese language skills with? Would someone like myself benefit more from pursuing something like a CPA, which offers a broader scope of job opportunities?

#15

FreshAir. If you’re sure you want to do investment management kinds of things (finance is a larger field than just that), it probably can’t hurt to study the CFA curriculum, since it will familiarize you with a lot of stuff and some of the jargon that is required. It’s not a good idea to wait until you complete all exams to go look for a job, since that takes forever and there’s no guarantee that it will work, but remember that if you like investments and plan to manage your own, the knowledge gained is still valuable. And, as you progress, you will sound more knowledgeable and confident when you are out prospeting for work, particularly if you don’t have a finance background from undergrad or elsewhere.

There are a lot of cynical people here on AF and in finance in general because cynicism tends to make people look like they have inside knowledge that they may or may not actually have, but it sure makes them look like they know something. Iteracom is one of our more cynical posters (I think he’s smart, but not particularly nuanced in his thinking), and he always says the same thing to pretty much everyone, so don’t worry that he just assumed you thought the CFA was a ticket to a dream job, when you didn’t. I incidentally, pretty much say my particular schpeel to everyone too, except when I’m too lazy to type it all out.

Speaking Chinese is a useful thing for an American or other westerner to have, since there is some concern based on a perception that native Chinese may not be as ethical or honest as westerners, and so it’s nice to have a westerner who can double-check things in Chinese. Now, that is definitely a stereotype and may or may not be true (and plenty of western finance people are untrustworthy too), but you can certainly try to use that perception to your advantage: just be diplomatic on how you put it. Secondly, in many emerging markets, they often like to have an American or westerner on staff to impress locals “gee, we’re international, we have white folk on our staff.” Again, that may be changing, and it’s also likely based on stereotypes, but again, you can try to spin that to your advantage.

So if you’re interested in this stuff, remember, you’re in for a long haul, and be sure to have a Plan B, but you’re probably in a better position than most who come here and ask if they should do the CFA. The CFA will help you, but it is not enough on it’s own - it’s just one piece of a larger strategy to become useful to the people who manage money.

#16

FreshAir, your competition for the most part won’t be other Americans that speak Chinese, but rather Chinese that are educated overseas and come back to China. A few things to ask yourself before going down this path…

  1. You say that you speak Chinese well, but are you able to use it in a business/finance setting? Are you able to pick up a phone and the other party won’t be able to tell (or care) that you’re American?

  2. Do you have any other background that you could leverage that would help switch into a finance career (i.e. strong undergrad or well connected personally)?

  3. Do you have professional work experience in the US? It’ll be hard to pitch international experience if it’s only in China.

#17

You’re young and have a deep understanding of both western and Chinese cultures. This gives you a unique advantage in certain jobs. For instance, I know a woman who was sort of a liaison between US and Japanese branches of a technology company. Or perhaps some company might hire someone to cultivate business relationships with Chinese clients. The point is, even though you have zero business experience, cultural exposure is also important. You can learn about a business quickly, but cultural understanding takes years to develop.

With that being said, it’s clear that you don’t have a good idea about what you want to do. The “finance” world is extremely broad, and any job search that is not highly targeted at certain jobs will likely fail. Plus, you might not be thinking about other careers that might suit your background - like maybe consulting, or business development or marketing. Finally, you are not in a position where recruiters will seek you out, and you have not been exposed to people with different business careers that you can use as role models.

For all these reasons, I think MBA is the right thing for you if you are serious about going down this route. Not only will you pick up some academic finance and business knowledge, but you will be able to meet experienced people who can give you the information that you need to decide what career is best for you. Plus, you will be exposed to campus recruiting - and this is probably how most MBA people transition to new careers. If you can get a high GMAT score and can spin your communication and cultural skills in a positive way, you might be a compelling candidate for business school.

Also, I agree that CFA will not help you very much. So many people come on AF with the same question - how CFA can help them get into finance. 99% of the time, the answer is that it won’t help.

#18

I’d skip the cfa program. But if you search for cfa on torrent sites you will find that the curriculum is available there. Pick up one of those and have a read. If you’re into it you’re into it.

A small town you say? Yeah that’s limiting. You need to get your but to a place where they might need a white guy,

#19

I doubt you read my comments here. I was quite civil, even OP seems to think so. Secondly, I don’t blanket statement. The reason it appears so, is because the vast majority of people that ask these “what are my chances threads” are usually something like:

looking to use the CFA as a break in tool, have no experience/ or experience in something totally unrelated, graduated years ago, mediocre school/GPA… or some combination of these

those are tough odds in today’s world. I think some people on here are way too optimistic, it’s a CFA forum, according to official stats, 50% of candidates are looking for the CFA to get a better job, so it’s totally unsurprising to see people say ‘oh yea, it’ll work, it’ll be great’. I think I would be harming people more by participating in that, then saying what I think is actually true. Or fueling someone’s hopes without a warning it will be a tough road.

I said OP for now should go for L1, but don’t hang the hopes on it landing a job. What’s overly negative about that? I think that’s quite sensible.

#20

Iteracom, I didn’t say you were uncivil. I said you are cynical. And that cynicism showed when you said “who told you that the CFA would be an entry ticket,” which is what you always say when someone asks about CFA (I actually see a thread and start thinking "I wonder how long it will be before iteracom jumps in with the ‘entry ticket’ line). The OP replied along the lines of “I never said I thought it would be a entry ticket,” which - as far as I can see - is also true of many others that you use the “not an entry ticket” line on.

I prefaced my response to the OP with “If you’re sure you want to do investment management…” then “it probably can’t hurt to study the CFA curriculum.” This doesn’t have to mean take all three exams. It doesn’t mean that invesment management has to be for a foundation or hedge fund or whatnot. Maybe it means they will just manage their own portfolio. In this I agree with you.

But seriously, if someone doesn’t have a background in finance, they’re going to sound crazy if they haven’t mastered the vocabulary of investments. What chance do they have? Yes, a little, based on connections and general intelligence, but where are you going to find a structured curriculum of finance basics?

The key is, CFA helps you know more about how to evaluate investments. It’s not everything, and it very likely isn’t going to be enough, but it’s a heck of a lot better than nothing. A key to the CFA decision is: “if you turn out not to get a job, will you think that it was a waste of time going through all those exams.” If you are going to be attentive to your own investments, the knowledge is definitely valuable, but it is a lot of work. It is true that if you knew from the get-go that you wouldn’t be able to turn it into some kind of job, maybe there are other ways to get that kind of knowledge that aren’t so much work, but if you are hoping for some kind of a job, it’s probably a sensible approach.

Ohai did mention an MBA as an alternative, and that that is something to consider. I think Ohai made a good case for MBA as an option. It’s more expensive than the CFA and generally requires you to be a full time student rather than self-study, which is a different cost and dynamic. But MBA programs (at least the good ones) do have built-in networking and recruiting connections which are valuable, so figure out your siduation.

The world’s a tough place and people are fighting each other for scraps of jobs, the way our ancestors fought each other over scraps of meat, and we both agree on that. The answer to the “should I do the CFA” question is: “If you really want to do this kind of work, and you don’t know much about finance, then the CFA is a fairly inexpensive way to get to a minimum level of knowledge that’s required to be in this industry. It’s not going to be enough on it’s own, and it’s going to take a lot of effort, but if you are really motivated to go in this direction, it’s a sensible thing to try. Just realize that you’re going to have to supplement it with a lot of networking, and it might not land anything in your lap, and if you do this, you have to ask yourself if you will think it a waste of time if you don’t end up in the job you are imagining, because that is a definite possibility.”

It’s also quite possible that if the OP isn’t imagining being a master of the universe hedge fund manager, and simply enjoy doing this kind of analysis for a level of compensation that is less than your competition, you may be able to find someone willing to dismiss a high-paid analyst for a lower-paid one. This is one reason many charterholders don’t want more people taking the exam. Also, I suspect that most hedge fund big shots aren’t charterholders (though many of their analysts are, depending on the fund style).