My friend brought this to my attention last night. After seeing ~$4/gal, his new summer project is to implement this setup on his old Audi. From 10th grade chemistry, I remember doing water electrolysis. Would this set up be possible? "The Water Fuel Cell, on the other hand, was examined by three expert witnesses in court who found that there “was nothing revolutionary about the cell at all and that it was simply using conventional electrolysis” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanley_Meyer
Sigh. Laws of Thermodynamics not negotiable.
it takes a lot of electricity to split h2o… so you might be putting more energy in than the energy coming out. however, if you get your electricity from a wind farm or something then it’d be a feasible and clean way to run your car.
I would bet my life and the life of everyone I love that it takes at least as much energy to split the bonds in water as you can get back by letting it bond again.
My friend argued that the input of water and electric current (battery) would allow the car to operate much cleaner and efficiently. Guess we’ll see what he comes up with this summer. He also claims big oil tycoons murdered Stanely Meyer. He’s big into conspiracies.
If you are worried about fuel costs, buy a volkswagen polo. They’re diesels and do 74 miles to the gallon. (61 miles to the trifling US gallon). Unless you live in a town or city where you will be braking a lot - and so recharging the batteries, then don’t buy a hybrid. In fact, just don’t buy a hybrid - the extra weight of the battery and cost of manufacture just aren’t worth it. Don’t implement stupid ideas that won’t work. All this project would be doing is making the car carry extra weight (reducing efficiency), and using grid power (generated using coal/gas/oil etc, then transmitted 100’s of miles incurring losses in proportion with I^2*R) instead of fuel power directly. Not smart. But I suppose it could be fun way to waste a summer if you are an engineering/conspiracy theorist geek.
Now wait a minute…This water car is stupid, but using grid power to power a car is a fine idea. Transmission of electric power is much more efficient than any gasoline powered engine I know about (in the extreme, electricity can be transmitted with 100% efficiency). Conceptually, a fuel cell car relying on grid power could be really green and not spewing diesel particulate all over the US, making it look grimy like Europe. Dirty buzzards.
chrismaths Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > If you are worried about fuel costs, buy a > volkswagen polo. They’re diesels and do 74 miles > to the gallon. (61 miles to the trifling US > gallon). Or a bike. > All this project would be doing is making the car > carry extra weight (reducing efficiency), and > using grid power (generated using coal/gas/oil > etc, then transmitted 100’s of miles incurring > losses in proportion with I^2*R) instead of fuel > power directly. I’m not sure that makes sense as it would mean we would all have household generators. Electricity creation efficiency is related to size. In Canada, small towns in the middle of nowhere have to have their electricity subsidised by the state as it is so inefficiently produced in a small town.
But electricity generation well => wheel is not as efficient as a decent (particulate filtered!!) diesel. You still have to burn that oil/coal/gas in the powerstation, and thermodynamics won’t let you get too efficient. Unless of course you become france and generate all your power through nuclear. Then of course, you have a distribution issue. If you want to trickle charge a car overnight, that could work. So long as you never need to travel more than 200 miles. Then you need to recharge quickly (just think about the power requirements of recharging station if you have to recharge a car in 5 minutes) or swap out a battery (which then has to be charged, create infrastructure etc), or have a diesel/petrol backup - which means you still need to carry around all that weight and have that infrastructure. And without a transformer the size of new york, you’re unlikely to get very close to 100% electricty transmission efficiency.
chrismaths Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > But electricity generation well => wheel is not as > efficient as a decent (particulate filtered!!) > diesel. You still have to burn that oil/coal/gas > in the powerstation, and thermodynamics won’t let > you get too efficient. Unless of course you become > france and generate all your power through > nuclear. > > Then of course, you have a distribution issue. If > you want to trickle charge a car overnight, that > could work. So long as you never need to travel > more than 200 miles. Then you need to recharge > quickly (just think about the power requirements > of recharging station if you have to recharge a > car in 5 minutes) or swap out a battery (which > then has to be charged, create infrastructure > etc), or have a diesel/petrol backup - which means > you still need to carry around all that weight and > have that infrastructure. > > And without a transformer the size of new york, > you’re unlikely to get very close to 100% > electricty transmission efficiency. In the US, we are putting up power lines completely consisting of superconducting materials. I read that in “Popular Science” a few years ago.
How much energy does it take to cool them?
JoeyDVivre Wrote: > In the US, we are putting up power lines > completely consisting of superconducting > materials. I read that in “Popular Science” a few > years ago. I’m not outright denying this, but don’t superconductors have to be cooled to some fraction of absolute zero, and aren’t they made of rare-earth elements that are damned expensive? I’d love to understand how they are doing this on a mass scale…
2008 prius hybrid is the best car i’ve ever owned. Leather interior, JBL sound system, talking NAV thang that links to cell phone, and space… I can fit 2 ten foot surfboards INSIDE the car and still have room for 1 passenger. I get 48 mpg. If the gas meter is on empty I can put $20 in and it goes almost all the way to full. If you drive a car that gets 12 mpg at these prices the total cost of ownership for a Prius is less than the variable costs for your guzzler… you might as well just park it and go buy a prius.
Awesome. So, all I have to do is fill up my gas tank with water and throw in a bunch of cell phone batteries? Game on.
jeff_s Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > JoeyDVivre Wrote: > > > In the US, we are putting up power lines > > completely consisting of superconducting > > materials. I read that in “Popular Science” a > few > > years ago. > > > I’m not outright denying this, but don’t > superconductors have to be cooled to some fraction > of absolute zero, and aren’t they made of > rare-earth elements that are damned expensive? > I’d love to understand how they are doing this on > a mass scale… Check out AMSC and CPTC. They make better wire than is currently used - I’ve got some sitting on my desk. What mentioned sounds like this a different kind of superconducting.
virginCFAhooker Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > 2008 prius hybrid is the best car i’ve ever > owned. Leather interior, JBL sound system, > talking NAV thang that links to cell phone, and > space… I can fit 2 ten foot surfboards INSIDE > the car and still have room for 1 passenger. I > get 48 mpg. If the gas meter is on empty I can > put $20 in and it goes almost all the way to full. > If you drive a car that gets 12 mpg at these > prices the total cost of ownership for a Prius is > less than the variable costs for your guzzler… > you might as well just park it and go buy a prius. You could run and that would have even less cost. Not to sound superficial, but cars are a status symbol for some, and I don’t plan on riding a subway to pick up someone for dinner anytime soon.
I have a Mustang convertible. Gas went up just in time to dissuade me from sunny lakeshore drives…blasted gas prices.
jeff_s Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > JoeyDVivre Wrote: > > > In the US, we are putting up power lines > > completely consisting of superconducting > > materials. I read that in “Popular Science” a > few > > years ago. > > > I’m not outright denying this, but don’t > superconductors have to be cooled to some fraction > of absolute zero, and aren’t they made of > rare-earth elements that are damned expensive? > I’d love to understand how they are doing this on > a mass scale… 
damn, i fell for that hook, line, and sinker.
World’s First Transmission Voltage Superconductor Cable Energized In LIPA’s Power Grid May 14, 2008 Hauppauge, NY - Long Island Power Authority (LIPA) and American Superconductor Corporation recently announced the operation of the world’s first high temperature superconductor (HTS) power transmission cable system in a commercial power grid. The 138,000 volt (138 kV) system, which consists of three individual HTS power cable phases running in parallel, was energized on April 22, 2008 and is operating successfully in LIPA’s Holbrook transmission right of way. The cable system, including six outdoor terminations for connection to LIPA’s grid, was designed, manufactured and installed by Nexans, the worldwide leader in the cable industry. The cable utilizes HTS wire produced by AMSC, which also is the prime contractor for the project. The 2,000-foot-long cable system is cryogenically cooled using a liquid nitrogen refrigeration system from Air Liquide.