> bchad’s post points to that fundamental lesson in > Econ 101 - you produce what you are efficient at > producing, and dont waste time on stuff you arent > efficient at. Obviously we can efficiently and economically produce cars. If not, then why has any other auto manufacturer relocated to the US to build cars? It’s a matter of streamlining the companies via pre-packaged bankruptcy, cramming down the debt and UAW. Use govt guarantee on the warranties.
spierce Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > > bchad’s post points to that fundamental lesson > in > > Econ 101 - you produce what you are efficient > at > > producing, and dont waste time on stuff you > arent > > efficient at. > > Obviously we can efficiently and economically > produce cars. If not, then why has any other auto > manufacturer relocated to the US to build cars? > > It’s a matter of streamlining the companies via > pre-packaged bankruptcy, cramming down the debt > and UAW. Use govt guarantee on the warranties. All of which will not happen even if attempted. I dont think we have the capability to put in place an oversight body to enusre efficiency. Numbers can be cooked. Number have been cooked for decades. In a strange way i think we are evolving darwinian style - survival of the fittest. and so i believe that even if these companies are bailed out, they will get depleted sooner or later. the only worry is that if we bail them out other industries may also get depleted in the process.
spierce, are you in the auto industry? or do you know anyone in it?, if yes, i understand your point of view and i am sorry if i have been less sensitive.
OK, spierce, if by bailout, you mean “prepackaged bankruptcy,” then I’m with you.
needhelp Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > spierce Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > > bchad’s post points to that fundamental > lesson > > in > > > Econ 101 - you produce what you are efficient > > at > > > producing, and dont waste time on stuff you > > arent > > > efficient at. > > > > Obviously we can efficiently and economically > > produce cars. If not, then why has any other > auto > > manufacturer relocated to the US to build cars? > > > > > It’s a matter of streamlining the companies via > > pre-packaged bankruptcy, cramming down the debt > > and UAW. Use govt guarantee on the warranties. > > All of which will not happen even if attempted. I > dont think we have the capability to put in place > an oversight body to enusre efficiency. Numbers > can be cooked. Number have been cooked for > decades. > > In a strange way i think we are evolving darwinian > style - survival of the fittest. and so i believe > that even if these companies are bailed out, they > will get depleted sooner or later. the only worry > is that if we bail them out other industries may > also get depleted in the process. What makes GM/Ford/Chrysler any different from what the foreign owned companies with domestic US production? Obviously, legacy costs and debt load. We can change those two factors pretty fricking easily. The Fusion is on-par, or even superior to the Accord. The new Malibu is getting almost equally as high of marks. The companies can, and are, changing.
spierce Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > needhelp Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > spierce Wrote: > > > -------------------------------------------------- > > > ----- > > > > bchad’s post points to that fundamental > > lesson > > > in > > > > Econ 101 - you produce what you are > efficient > > > at > > > > producing, and dont waste time on stuff you > > > arent > > > > efficient at. > > > > > > Obviously we can efficiently and economically > > > produce cars. If not, then why has any other > > auto > > > manufacturer relocated to the US to build > cars? > > > > > > > > It’s a matter of streamlining the companies > via > > > pre-packaged bankruptcy, cramming down the > debt > > > and UAW. Use govt guarantee on the > warranties. > > > > All of which will not happen even if attempted. > I > > dont think we have the capability to put in > place > > an oversight body to enusre efficiency. Numbers > > can be cooked. Number have been cooked for > > decades. > > > > In a strange way i think we are evolving > darwinian > > style - survival of the fittest. and so i > believe > > that even if these companies are bailed out, > they > > will get depleted sooner or later. the only > worry > > is that if we bail them out other industries > may > > also get depleted in the process. > > > What makes GM/Ford/Chrysler any different from > what the foreign owned companies with domestic US > production? > > Obviously, legacy costs and debt load. We can > change those two factors pretty fricking easily. > > > The Fusion is on-par, or even superior to the > Accord. The new Malibu is getting almost equally > as high of marks. > > The companies can, and are, changing. Agree that the latest model cars are so much better. But is it too little too late? Why did the auto execs show up without a plan the first time? I am highly skeptical of them. Whatever the solution, the top execs must go.
Yay. GM and F did something like $350 bln in sales last year. As Americans, we should use all means necessary to turn those sales into profits because if we don’t, another country will. “if we build it they will come”
Bail them out? The government should close them down!
RIGWDL3 Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Yay. > > GM and F did something like $350 bln in sales last > year. As Americans, we should use all means > necessary to turn those sales into profits because > if we don’t, another country will. > > “if we build it they will come” Unfortunately until we get rid of this patriotic crap, we will have many more depressing days to come.
I’ve been short domestic auto since I was going up skirts in grade 8.
Survival of the fittest – sounds to me like you’re are talking about pure free market capitalism. Well, for the most part I think we all agree that, on paper at least, FMC is, as L Kudlow would say, “the best path to prosperity.” Butare our markets really free? How much intervention does government play into industry? In Japan and German healthcare is provided to all citizens by the gov’t, a huge cost saving to the auto companies in those countries? Is that free markets? Our military spends billions protecting shipping lanes for the oil trade – free of charge (for the most part) to the Oil companies and the ultimate consumers of that oil. Is this free markets? Billions are spent every year to subsidize farming in the US and pretty much all western nations, trade barriers are set-up all over the place, currencies are manipulated, OPEC controls oil prices (or at least tries to), banks are bailed out, insurance companies are bailed out, hedge funds are bailed out, on and on and on… Free markets? Bottom line is the US auto industry definitely needs restructuring. Union contracts have to be toned down, units need to be cut, salaries need to be adjusted, possibly a merger should take place, but letting them fail isn’t the solution. Once we’re out of the current economic mess we’re in, the market for autos is going to explode. It would be a shame if there is no longer a US auto industry to not only partake in that growth, but to play a role in the type of car that consumers will drive 10, 20 or even 30 years from now.
spierce Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > ahahah Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > JoeyDVivre Wrote: > > > -------------------------------------------------- > > > ----- > > > ahahah Wrote: > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > ----- > > > > Nay… Show me some f-in cash flow before > you > > > ask > > > > me for a loan! > > > > > > > > > They definitely have cash flow. Like > > > $51,000/minute out the door. It’s a cash > > torrent. > > > > > > I mean–talk to me like I’m 3. How can you > lend > > money to that? It’s seems like you’re standing > at > > the grand canyon and saying “gee, think I > should > > jump off?”… > > > How to VC funds lend money like that? > > Future prospects. This is a joke right? You’re talking about companies that were burning through cash when the market was on fire! What is going to change? Furthermore, what type of VC firm would make a $34 B investment in three companies with no ability to control them?
ahahah Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > spierce Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > ahahah Wrote: > > > -------------------------------------------------- > > > ----- > > > JoeyDVivre Wrote: > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > ----- > > > > ahahah Wrote: > > > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > ----- > > > > > Nay… Show me some f-in cash flow before > > you > > > > ask > > > > > me for a loan! > > > > > > > > > > > > They definitely have cash flow. Like > > > > $51,000/minute out the door. It’s a cash > > > torrent. > > > > > > > > > I mean–talk to me like I’m 3. How can you > > lend > > > money to that? It’s seems like you’re > standing > > at > > > the grand canyon and saying “gee, think I > > should > > > jump off?”… > > > > > > How to VC funds lend money like that? > > > > Future prospects. > > This is a joke right? You’re talking about > companies that were burning through cash when the > market was on fire! What is going to change? > Furthermore, what type of VC firm would make a $34 > B investment in three companies with no ability to > control them? Do you have reading comprehension problems? Not understand what the problem is with the companies? Their cash burn is directly related to the UAW and their debt. A pre-packaged bankruptcy to cram them down would fix 80% of the problem.
I would like to hear more about this pre-packaged bankruptcy. The automakers say that they won’t be able to sell any cars in this environment and that it’s bailout or Chapter 7. I think the guys running these companies are idiots. I don’t know how that happened, but we need someone as capable as Lee iacocca (who did the job with Chrysler) to get them out of it. There are no VC firms who are going to drop $34B on any US auto company without a huge govt commitment.
They have all been around too long, extinction is the natural outcome. But it is like we are trying to preserve a species which has become completely irrelevant and incapable of surviving in today’s world…jez just let em die!
spierce Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > > Do you have reading comprehension problems? Not > understand what the problem is with the > companies? > > Their cash burn is directly related to the UAW and > their debt. A pre-packaged bankruptcy to cram > them down would fix 80% of the problem. Fair enough, but even if you give them Toyota’s gross margin of about 18%, if sales fall from their 2007 levels more than 33% you can no longer cover the 10% pref on a $34B bailout.