Kewl, thanks internet MD. My counterpoint is that you’re not a doctor and you’re just stating random uninformed opinions as facts. My initial point is that he was in clear state of mind, thinking logically.
i haven’t come down on one side or the other of whether or not bchad’s decision was a good/inevitable one or a bad/preventable one. i don’t think it’s possible to fairly judge hopelessness from a 3rd person perspective, especially in a situation like this where it was clearly contemplated over a long period and was not in any way a capricious act, as far as i can tell.
i get the tendency to want to prevent stuff like this, but i think it is ultimately a decision that the individual has to make. the best we can do is be attuned to ‘cries for help’ which indicate a deep down desire to go on. in that case, you do everything you can to help. otherwise, there is no helping a person who does not want to be helped, as sad as that might be. my guess is there was no cry for help in this situation because a mind was made up.
one can think logically based on flawed premises and come to a flawed conclusion. not saying it applies here per se, but it’s possible.
Huh, just read it. Kinda wish I didn’t.
My belief is that his mental state kept him from achieving financial stability or pulling out of the hopeless situation that he described. After 10 years of frustration, he finally concluded that his situation was pointless. So as Turd has courteously pointed out, his logic on the first level might have been consistent, but it was based on some issues on the second level.
No, I don’t have conclusive evidence, but this way makes the most sense to me in explaining why someone like that could still fail in making a living or doing other worthwhile things.
In that case, my bad. I personally found it helpful and thought it offered some closure, although it definitely stuck with me. As shocking as it was that day, I couldn’t help but smile at the inclusion of an addendum.
I don’t disagree with you and to an extent I thought Ohai made similar points that I found really helpful.
Depression is not a conviction, and we don’t need to dance around the subject saying “presumed not depressed until proven otherwise by an MD”. Yes, I’m speculating he had depression based on the facts I know. Which means he wasn’t in a clear state of mind. Which doesn’t mean he couldn’t think logically or be very eloquent when arguing his point. If he had depression, it wouldn’t lower my respect for the guy with whom I interacted many times in this forum over the past 10 years - it’s not a stigma, it’s a disease.
Ok and I vehemently disagree with you that he was conclusively depressed. He planned this months in advance. I interacted with him directly in person during that period and the feedback from both his close friends and partner was that there were no signs of depression over that period and that he was in fact very content. In fact in his own reasoning, he was very satisfied with his life in all aspects but financially, none of this fits the description of “clinical depression”. I think it’s extremely simplistic to take the stance of diagnosing someone off of two data points and an online relationship with no medical background.
Yes, the addendum was very bchad-esque. My feelings on the note itself are probably best left unsaid. Suffice it to say, I found it displeasing.
PM me if you want, would be interested to hear your thoughts. If not, also ok.
Just because people around him didn’t notice the signs, doesn’t mean he wasn’t depressed. He was intelligent enough to be able to carefully hide those signs.
I didn’t say that wasn’t a possibility, I said that it’s simplistic to make that assumption.
I don’t think my speculation is any more simplistic than your vehement refusal to accept the possibility that he might have had an undiagnosed major depression which remained unnoticed by his close circle until the end. Having a depression doesn’t mean you can’t plan things and think in logical steps, it doesn’t mean you can’t hide it deep inside when you interact with others in person or online, and it doesn’t mean you feel all aspects of your life are a failure.
And if you truly believed he wasn’t depressed in the months before based on your interactions with him, you should try practicing some Bayesian intereference in light of his unexpected suicide.
I agree. We can’t make an assumption in either direction. We simply don’t know.
typical AF.
I never said there was no possibility that he might have an undiagnosed depression. I said my “personal view was that he was in a clear and logical state of mind”. I did say you’re assumption stated emphatically as fact that he certainly did was simplistic. At this point the entirety of your posts seem to come down to arguing that people can be logical and think clearly while not being in a logical or clear state of mind which is just semantics. That and an internet diagnosis.
And this was my point.
The only reason I hesitate is because my thoughts will surely offend many here. That doesn’t normally bother me, but this is a bit more “real” than me offending a billion Indians. While talking with my wife about this last night I realized I probably conversed more with him than many of my real-life acquaintances. Many of us probably did. So I do feel his loss in a meaningful way.
All that said, I found his note to be - in a single word - pathetic. I can forgive the pretentious nature of the letter. One can do that if it’s the last thing you’ll ever write (especially bchad). But the self pity, insecurity, unwillingness to adapt and overcome, and self-righteousness were all too much to bear. People say suicide notes are written not for those you leave behind, but for the person taking their own life. bchad’s letter is, in my opinion, a very good indication this is true.
I would like to say I won’t think anything less of him for reading it, but in all honesty he put way too much thought into the letter for me to simply write it off as something written in a dire, last moment. That letter is who bchad was, at least toward the end of his life. And what really pisses me off, I could have helped him. Many of us here could have helped him.
Despite my earlier statement about when I find it acceptable to commit suicide, I don’t completely disagree that taking one’s own life is ultimately their choice and, in a way, the ultimate act of personal freedom. But bchad had options. The fact he didn’t exhaust every option first before throwing in the towel is not something I can really comprehend. I guess that’s why I find it pathetic. The lack of trying. The unwillingness to ask for help. The inability to see a brighter future. The total loss of faith in yourself.
None of these things make sense to me.
The only thing missing from this silly argument is a massive wall of text. RIP