You’re right, it is a biased view of the industry, given that I ACTUALLY WORK IN THE INDUSTRY and have done a fair amount of hiring lately. I just tried to fill a very good job, and the four finalists for job were: - Law undergrad (foreign), no MBA, no CFA - Government undergrad, no MBA, no CFA - Computer science undergrad, no MBA, no CFA - Business undergrad, MBA, CFA, CMA They’ve all worked at some of the best sell-side and buy-side firms in the country, and most of them got in right out of school or within 2-3 years after doing something else (like consulting). People piss and whine on this board way too much about not having a Harvard MBA or some other bullcrap. It’s harder now than it used to be because of the recession, but just get it done and stop making excuses – your competitors are finding a way. If you want bias, it’s what you’ll find on this board from a bunch of pedantic people striving for yet another useless academic credential like the CFA. In the real world, results matter way more than being able to calculate some obscure derivatives formula or recite GIPS by memory. I know I’m in the minority on this board, but this is the way things actually are based on reality. If people want to keep making excuses, they should do as they see fit, but I wouldn’t expect much in the way of results from that approach. Btw, competition is always bad in finance. But you wouldn’t expect anything less in the highest paid field in the world.
if all this is so useless like you claim, why are you even on here? Go pursue your glorious non-MBA and non-CFA life, and stop bothering the rest of us trying to pursue it to better ourselves.
bromion Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > You’re right, it is a biased view of the industry, > given that I ACTUALLY WORK IN THE INDUSTRY and > have done a fair amount of hiring lately. I just > tried to fill a very good job, and the four > finalists for job were: > > - Law undergrad (foreign), no MBA, no CFA > - Government undergrad, no MBA, no CFA > - Computer science undergrad, no MBA, no CFA > - Business undergrad, MBA, CFA, CMA > > They’ve all worked at some of the best sell-side > and buy-side firms in the country, and most of > them got in right out of school or within 2-3 > years after doing something else (like > consulting). People piss and whine on this board > way too much about not having a Harvard MBA or > some other bullcrap. It’s harder now than it used > to be because of the recession, but just get it > done and stop making excuses – your competitors > are finding a way. > > If you want bias, it’s what you’ll find on this > board from a bunch of pedantic people striving for > yet another useless academic credential like the > CFA. In the real world, results matter way more > than being able to calculate some obscure > derivatives formula or recite GIPS by memory. I > know I’m in the minority on this board, but this > is the way things actually are based on reality. > If people want to keep making excuses, they should > do as they see fit, but I wouldn’t expect much in > the way of results from that approach. > > Btw, competition is always bad in finance. But you > wouldn’t expect anything less in the highest paid > field in the world. Maybe I’m reading the previous posts wrong, but it seems like the argument was that it’s difficult to get a good finance job out of school with a non-finance undergrad. You’re example uses candidates with experience already, so it doesn’t really prove or disprove anything. Case in point, iteracom said "Ok, this is biased information. Yes, a lot of successful people do have only a BS or BA in non-finance. But they were able to enter finance in a favorable economic environment years ago when competition wasn’t bad. This makes ALL THE DIFFERENCE. " Do you have any examples where having a BS/BA with little to no finance experience and getting a good job in finance is possible? Don’t get me wrong, I agree with you. Experience totally trumps some designation that says your worked your butt off to memorize lots of formulas, concepts, and techniques that might or might not be used in the real world. But in this type of environment, there’s plenty of people who need something that gives them credibility to leverage.
Come on you guys are ignoring his most important credential, that he went to Cornell, which is a pretty good university. People that went to top schools and had good grades are still popular choices for entry level analyst positions (particulary at firms dominated by ivy leaguers). What he studied, and what qualifications he had is unimportant past the initial interview screening process. Each company has its own tools to determine your worthiness. And every CFA charterholder I know plays down the importance of the charter in anything they have accomplished.
bromion Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > You’re right, it is a biased view of the industry, > given that I ACTUALLY WORK IN THE INDUSTRY and > have done a fair amount of hiring lately. I just > tried to fill a very good job, and the four > finalists for job were: > > - Law undergrad (foreign), no MBA, no CFA > - Government undergrad, no MBA, no CFA > - Computer science undergrad, no MBA, no CFA > - Business undergrad, MBA, CFA, CMA > > They’ve all worked at some of the best sell-side > and buy-side firms in the country, and most of > them got in right out of school or within 2-3 > years after doing something else (like > consulting). People piss and whine on this board > way too much about not having a Harvard MBA or > some other bullcrap. It’s harder now than it used > to be because of the recession, but just get it > done and stop making excuses – your competitors > are finding a way. > > If you want bias, it’s what you’ll find on this > board from a bunch of pedantic people striving for > yet another useless academic credential like the > CFA. In the real world, results matter way more > than being able to calculate some obscure > derivatives formula or recite GIPS by memory. I > know I’m in the minority on this board, but this > is the way things actually are based on reality. > If people want to keep making excuses, they should > do as they see fit, but I wouldn’t expect much in > the way of results from that approach. > > Btw, competition is always bad in finance. But you > wouldn’t expect anything less in the highest paid > field in the world. I like this post. Very much. Many guys on this board wouldn’t know what to do with the best qualifications in the world if they had them anyways.
Einhorn got half a million from his parents. that is better than an MBA if you’re looking to invest money. I find that people who ask questions like “if i get an MBA” or “do you need an MBA to” normally deserve the answer “yes, you need an MBA because you lack the real skills”.
FrankArabia Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > > I find that people who ask questions like “if i > get an MBA” or “do you need an MBA to” normally > deserve the answer “yes, you need an MBA because > you lack the real skills”. Everyone who ever went for the MBA and got it had to have asked those questions at some point. So, all those people “lack the real skills”?? BS
I’m glad I started a minor firestorm. I’m just saying, recession or not, I bet it is more difficult now for a non-finance (non-business or math degree in general) to get the type of job Einhorn got right out of school. Of course Cornell helps a ton but all else equal, I’m guessing this sort of thing was more likely to happen 10 or 20 years ago than it is today.
I agree with bromion. The major doesn’t matter, but rather where you go, and your gpa there. From what it appears the best firms want the best talent, finance major or not. With that said, I don’t think you guys are disagreeing, if you are from a non-target school your major probably has to be finance or a quant discipline.
murders&executions Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > I bet it is more > difficult now for a non-finance (non-business or > math degree in general) to get the type of job > Einhorn got right out of school. Of course Cornell > helps a ton but all else equal, I’m guessing this > sort of thing was more likely to happen 10 or 20 > years ago than it is today. I’m sure hiring managers are aware of how vastly overrated a business/finance degree is. It’s basically social science + high school math, and I doubt there is a strong correlation between obtaining such a degree and making $$$ for the firm.
former trader Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > > I’m sure hiring managers are aware of how vastly > overrated a business/finance degree is. It’s > basically social science + high school math, and I > doubt there is a strong correlation between > obtaining such a degree and making $$$ for the > firm. I would think a finance degree is better preperation for a job in finance than a political science degree. But then again, I don’t have a political science degree so I guess I don’t know.
Everyone saying “finance degree is useless”, you probably don’t have a finance degree right? No one is going to doubt ivy league status. But for anyone in tier 2 or tier 3 schools without a Finance degree, I highly doubt it’s the same as w/ a finance degree.
bromion Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > You’re right, it is a biased view of the industry, > given that I ACTUALLY WORK IN THE INDUSTRY and > have done a fair amount of hiring lately. I just > tried to fill a very good job, and the four > finalists for job were: > > - Law undergrad (foreign), no MBA, no CFA > - Government undergrad, no MBA, no CFA > - Computer science undergrad, no MBA, no CFA > - Business undergrad, MBA, CFA, CMA > > They’ve all worked at some of the best sell-side > and buy-side firms in the country, and most of > them got in right out of school or within 2-3 > years after doing something else (like > consulting). People piss and whine on this board > way too much about not having a Harvard MBA or > some other bullcrap. It’s harder now than it used > to be because of the recession, but just get it > done and stop making excuses – your competitors > are finding a way. > > If you want bias, it’s what you’ll find on this > board from a bunch of pedantic people striving for > yet another useless academic credential like the > CFA. In the real world, results matter way more > than being able to calculate some obscure > derivatives formula or recite GIPS by memory. I > know I’m in the minority on this board, but this > is the way things actually are based on reality. > If people want to keep making excuses, they should > do as they see fit, but I wouldn’t expect much in > the way of results from that approach. > > Btw, competition is always bad in finance. But you > wouldn’t expect anything less in the highest paid > field in the world. No sh!t. Imagine that, the quality of the candidate is more important than what they studied in undergrad. It’s surprising to see you so quickly discount the CFA given your bent on entrepreneurialism and ‘getting it done’, which in the way of academics is a very useful qualification, certainly more so than an undergrad education. (at least in terms of actually learning anything of use) I’m not sure why, but you seem to be projecting your insecurities - as if you need to do so in order to maintain your standing or motivation. Don’t be so quick to malign people for their ‘excuses’ as often times you’ll confuse excuses with anecdotes or commentary of past experiences. Excuses are for people who’ve given up and despite the ‘whining’ on this board, my money is that most people choose to persevere. Consider it a bit of venting, lighten up, and quit being so judgmental.
- You would think that the quality of the candidate would obviously be more important, but you wouldn’t get that here on AF, where everyone wants to reduce everything to where you went to school and what you studied, which are almost the least important aspects of success in this field (not irrelevant, and the recruiting advantage out of top schools is real, but they are hardly the most important things). 2) I have the CFA, so I can say it’s useless. Tell me how GIPS or 95% of the other material is useful for becoming an investor. That’s right, you can’t, because it’s useless. The CFA program is a lie designed to generate annuity returns for CFAI. 3) I already made it so there is nothing to be insecure about. If you read my original post in this thread, I simply said that a lot of people succeed without an MBA or CFA, and then people felt compelled to defend “the institution.” My post was aimed at any talented people who might be reading this board and developing the false impressions here based on the insecurities of others that a career on Wall St. is out of reach because they didn’t go to Harvard or Wharton. That’s wrong. I wish that someone had posted advice like this when I was trying to get into the field, as I would have found that inspirational.
Bromion, you are contradicting yourself in a way by dismissing the CFA. I would argue that the CFA was instrumental in helping you get noticed when you were trying to get into the hedge fund business. True, the designation might not help you manage money today, but it definitely looks good on the resume for somebody trying to get into AM from a non-ivy league background. If I remember your older posts (which were great by the way), you went to a state school, and did not have the ivy league pedigree. However, you had hustle, were smart and the CFA was invaluable in helping you get interviews. Remember, you have “made it” so it is easy to dismiss the CFA once you have made it. But, I think you are ignoring what the designation did for you to “get there”. I remember an older post that basically boiled it down to this (if you want to get into AM): Ivy league undergrad or MBA: do not need CFA, do not need to major in finance. Non-ivy league background: major in finance, CFA required.
iteracom Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Everyone saying “finance degree is useless”, you > probably don’t have a finance degree right? > > No one is going to doubt ivy league status. But > for anyone in tier 2 or tier 3 schools without a > Finance degree, I highly doubt it’s the same as w/ > a finance degree. I do have a finance degree and completed all 3 levels. If I could go back in the past, I would have done a more useful degree in university (mathematics, actuarial, engineering, even English lit) and complement that degree with the CFA designation, as everything you learned about finance in school is already included in the CFA program or can be easily self-taught by reading material on your own. You’d be surprised at how many traders I know who have consistently made over 6 figures for close to a decade now, yet have no clue what the FOMC stands for, who the Treasury secretary is or how to calculate NPV.
whats a non-target BTW? is Duke or UVA considered a target?
I see your point thommo in that the CFA was a proxy for hard work and a certain level of intelligence and likely helped me in that regard. What I was trying to say is that there is no absolute truth in educational credentials, contrary to popular belief. Because you do or do not have a particular degree shouldn’t matter to your long-term success in finance, in other words, because the only things that dictate long-term success are intelligence, work ethic and determination (a lot of people take these as a given, but they’re not – plenty of people with ideal credentials are struggling to make moves in this industry as well). The CFA doesn’t make you a better investor (it probably makes you worse to be honest since you have to unlearn a lot of the incorrect assumptions around EMH). If other people assign some value to the CFA, that’s fine, but it is “inherently” (in the absolute truth sense of the word) useless to running a successful investment fund. It might be useful to the extent that other people think it is useful, and therefore have option value. In fact, when you actually look around, there seem to be a lot more “non-standard” (don’t have the “ideal” credentials) people on the right side of the bell curve than there are people with standard backgrounds in this business. And yet, people for whatever reason persist in believing you “have” to do it a certain way or you’re hosed for life and have no chance of ever amounting to anything worthwhile. I think that’s wrong. There seems to be a lot of frustration on AF by people who can’t break into the industry because they didn’t go to the Ivy League or whatever, and I’m frustrated with the people who are frustrated, because I think they are making it out to be harder than it is and potentially discouraging other smart people from trying to reach their goals. If you want it, do it. That’s all there is to it. I’m also frustrated with the entire CFA program, because it holds itself out there as some kind of panacea of the investment world, when it clearly isn’t – I think the program is predatory and misleading. Just my opinion, and I know I’m in the minority, but hopefully someone reading this will find a different perspective helpful to what they’re trying to accomplish.
bromion Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > > 2) I have the CFA, so I can say it’s useless. Tell > me how GIPS or 95% of the other material is useful > for becoming an investor. That’s right, you can’t, > because it’s useless. The CFA program is a lie > designed to generate annuity returns for CFAI. > So, why are you even on here if everything about the CFA charter is useless? You couldn’t even refer to the designation correctly, so clearly your education has been useless. You only wasted your own time. > 3) I already made it so there is nothing to be > insecure about. If you read my original post in > this thread, I simply said that a lot of people > succeed without an MBA or CFA And a lot of people who didn’t go to college become billionaires. And a lot of people win the lottery, and instantly become a thousand times wealthier than you. And people find gold buried treasure… You know what everyone, take his advice. Don’t major in finance, don’t get a CFA charter, don’t go for an MBA. No seriously. It’s in my best interest.
You’re an idiot. I don’t care about the CFA’s rules. I’m here because I derive some value from certain topics on the forum, and enjoy helping aspiring investors. Why are you here, besides hating on people? Clearly not to help, given your extensive post count of 25. I predict you’re going to struggle in life. Good luck with that.