OP: OT, but I am going to see your namesake tonight at the Santa Barbara County Bowl. Looking forward to it. And maybe the question was more in the context of a conversation than a yardstick of your intelligence. I have failed a number of times and it provides a number of stories, some sad, but either way, it is interesting how people approach the test, study habits, amount of luck, age you took it, etc.
If someone asked me “Did you pass the CFA on the first try?” then I would reply “No, it is three tests and you cannot take them all at once” just to show they have no clue. In interviews for me it comes up in the normal flow of conversation and it is usually a charterholder someone who was in the CFA program at some point asking it. I remember when I passed L3 I did not yet have the requisite work experience, and it boggled HR’s mind that I did not have the charter already.
builders Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > > probably DE Shaw and they use it because they > likely correlate strong SAT scores with associate > performance which is why they look for it > > perfectly acceptable question to ask IMO I still don’t believe it is. Because it’s literally saying to someone, “tell me what your ability to take a test was 13 years ago”. People change A TON in 13 years, especially from high school to college to work. The company isn’t hiring the YOU from 13 years ago, it’s hiring the person YOU as you are today. If you wanted to compare GMAT scores from 1 or 2 years ago, that I find perfectly acceptable. But SAT’s over a decade ago makes no sense to me
supersadface Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > I think it’s a valid question in the sense that > they’re certainly allowed to ask…but it honestly > reveals a heck of a lot more about the interviewer > and firm than it does the interviewee. > > My girlfriend’s in law school. She’s always been > a really strong student, but a firm that > interviewed her for a summer associate position > wanted to know things like her SAT scores, AP exam > scores, LSAT scores, etc. Again, they’re > certainly allowed to ask stuff like that, but she > decided based on the questions she got from them > (which contributed to a generally terrible vibe > from the employees she spoke with) that these > really weren’t the kind of people she’d be excited > to share office space with. > > So yeah…they can ask, but if THAT’S what they > want to know about your CFA exam experience, then > they sound like either jerks or idiots. I hope your girlfriend is really hot (for your sake) and/or intelligent and/or independently wealthy - turning down a potential associate position because the interviewer rubbed her the wrong way by asking a question about her exam performance in the current legal employment environment is well… Not a very good decision, putting it lightly.
brain_wash_your_face Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > If someone asked me “Did you pass the CFA on the > first try?” then I would reply “No, it is three > tests and you cannot take them all at once” just > to show they have no clue. > > In interviews for me it comes up in the normal > flow of conversation and it is usually a > charterholder someone who was in the CFA program > at some point asking it. I remember when I passed > L3 I did not yet have the requisite work > experience, and it boggled HR’s mind that I did > not have the charter already. Actually, I would answer yes because I obtained the charter on my first attempt. I did not attempt to obtain my charter, drop out of the process and then start it again. I however did not pass each test on my first attempt.
bchadwick Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Just remember not to read *too* much into it. > Some people may ask this question just to be > conversational. They may not even care that much > about the answer. I second that. I would answer that question and then ask about reasons for asking that question.
jcole21 Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > supersadface Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > I think it’s a valid question in the sense that > > they’re certainly allowed to ask…but it > honestly > > reveals a heck of a lot more about the > interviewer > > and firm than it does the interviewee. > > > > My girlfriend’s in law school. She’s always > been > > a really strong student, but a firm that > > interviewed her for a summer associate position > > wanted to know things like her SAT scores, AP > exam > > scores, LSAT scores, etc. Again, they’re > > certainly allowed to ask stuff like that, but > she > > decided based on the questions she got from > them > > (which contributed to a generally terrible vibe > > from the employees she spoke with) that these > > really weren’t the kind of people she’d be > excited > > to share office space with. > > > > So yeah…they can ask, but if THAT’S what they > > want to know about your CFA exam experience, > then > > they sound like either jerks or idiots. > > I hope your girlfriend is really hot (for your > sake) and/or intelligent and/or independently > wealthy - turning down a potential associate > position because the interviewer rubbed her the > wrong way by asking a question about her exam > performance in the current legal employment > environment is well… Not a very good decision, > putting it lightly. Maybe she had other options legitimizing her “not very good decision”?
as long as the exams were written recently, say within 5 years, i don’t see why this is so bad. why wouldn’t CFA performance closely reflect your GPA. it should, and if you fail the CFA exams yet have a GPA of 4, it should lead to further questioning about why one performed so poorly on these exams but did so well in school. i know plenty of people who learn well enough to do well in school, but not well enough to pass all CFA exams with little chance of failure.
ugh so many things wrong with the above statement I don’t even know where to start… There are very successful people on this very board who did extremely well in school yet did not pass the exams first time out, maybe because they didn’t have enough time to pass them, maybe they are just very good at doing well in a classroom environment but not on a more ambiguous exam, maybe they had personal tragedies going on or maybe they just didn’t manage their time well, who knows. But let me say this: passing these exams DOES NOT imply that you are smart. I know plenty of people I do not consider to be smart who passed. For example, how can a non-quant marketing-type person pass all three levels of the exam? I don’t know. But they do! And yes, you have to prepare for the exams as you might do in school, but at least some of the grade depends on how well you executed the exam. What about people who don’t speak English as their native language? Would you think that because they may not have passed the first time, this indicates that they are not smart, OR, maybe, that they were not well-prepared to face the exam format? I agree with whoever wrote about DE Shaw and their stupid insistence on old SAT scores. I hate this company and this is the reason. I do not want to work for them or anyone else who makes such stupid generalizations. I don’t like snobs or arrogant pr!cks, and such interview questions make me think that I’d be working with a bunch of such types. No thanks. There are plenty of other places that get it.
MattLikesAnalysis Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > as long as the exams were written recently, say > within 5 years, i don’t see why this is so bad. > why wouldn’t CFA performance closely reflect your > GPA. it should, and if you fail the CFA exams yet > have a GPA of 4, it should lead to further > questioning about why one performed so poorly on > these exams but did so well in school. i know > plenty of people who learn well enough to do well > in school, but not well enough to pass all CFA > exams with little chance of failure. I agree with DoubleDip, there are so many things wrong in this above comment.
This is copy-pasted from DE Shaw’s homepage, no joke: **************************** Our staff includes a number of Rhodes, Fulbright, and Marshall Scholars, Putnam Fellows, and the winners of more than 20 medals in the International Math Olympiad. Current employees include the 2003 U.S. Women’s Chess Champion, a Life Master bridge player, and a Jeopardy winner, along with a number of writers, athletes, musicians, and former professors. Over 100 of our employees hold Ph.D.s, almost 40 are entrepreneurs who previously founded their own companies, and approximately 20 percent are published authors whose work ranges from highly technical papers in specialized academic journals to award-winning mystery novels. ***************************** LOL…Jeopardy winner ??? Is this for real ? It’s one thing to be elitist, but this is just ridiculous.
The only person, who asked me that question, was a founder of one of the CFA local societies
jcole21 Wrote: > I hope your girlfriend is really hot (for your > sake) and/or intelligent and/or independently > wealthy - turning down a potential associate > position because the interviewer rubbed her the > wrong way by asking a question about her exam > performance in the current legal employment > environment is well… Not a very good decision, > putting it lightly. Unfortunately, Jcole, my girlfriend is ugly and scorchingly dumb - the kind of girl who can’t be trusted around solvents, because sooner or later she’s going to confuse them with “binaca” breath spray. She makes up for these shortcomings by being fiscally unsound, to the point where she has not only ruined her own credit, but after stealing my credit card information, trashed mine as well. We’re hoping to tie the knot sometime soon. Kidding aside, you have to understand that we’re talking about one of several factors as to why she didn’t work at the firm. My point was that if an employer is asking you questions that don’t line up with what you view as important, you have every right to view it as a ding against them. An interview should go both ways - you are trying out the employer as well. If my employer wanted to know why I wasn’t in a certain fraternity in college or what type of soup I would picture myself as, I’d answer as best I could, but I would certainly think less of them for asking questions that are basically a waste of everyone’s time. My girlfriend in this case had several other offers and basically got the impression that this firm was a toolshed. Not like she threw a drink in the interviewers face and walked out, she just decided after evaluating a number of factors - the interviews included - that she’d prefer to summer somewhere else. Disclosure: I picture myself as tomato soup, with a grilled cheese sandwich.
Viceroy Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > This is copy-pasted from DE Shaw’s homepage, no > joke: > > **************************** > Our staff includes a number of Rhodes, Fulbright, > and Marshall Scholars, Putnam Fellows, and the > winners of more than 20 medals in the > International Math Olympiad. Current employees > include the 2003 U.S. Women’s Chess Champion, a > Life Master bridge player, and a Jeopardy winner, > along with a number of writers, athletes, > musicians, and former professors. Over 100 of our > employees hold Ph.D.s, almost 40 are entrepreneurs > who previously founded their own companies, and > approximately 20 percent are published authors > whose work ranges from highly technical papers in > specialized academic journals to award-winning > mystery novels. > ***************************** > > LOL…Jeopardy winner ??? > > Is this for real ? > > It’s one thing to be elitist, but this is just > ridiculous. One of my professors from undergrad works there. Very bright guy. He came up with an extension of Ito’s formula during his undergrad. I got together with him last summer and he said he really enjoyed working at DE Shaw.
no mentions of Putnam, ACM, but they mention International Math Olympiad which is for highschool? good one.
DoubleDip Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > ugh so many things wrong with the above statement > I don’t even know where to start… > There are very successful people on this very > board who did extremely well in school yet did not > pass the exams first time out, maybe because they > didn’t have enough time to pass them, maybe they > are just very good at doing well in a classroom > environment but not on a more ambiguous exam, > maybe they had personal tragedies going on or > maybe they just didn’t manage their time well, who > knows. But let me say this: passing these exams > DOES NOT imply that you are smart. I know plenty > of people I do not consider to be smart who > passed. For example, how can a non-quant > marketing-type person pass all three levels of the > exam? I don’t know. But they do! And yes, you > have to prepare for the exams as you might do in > school, but at least some of the grade depends on > how well you executed the exam. What about people > who don’t speak English as their native language? > Would you think that because they may not have > passed the first time, this indicates that they > are not smart, OR, maybe, that they were not > well-prepared to face the exam format? I agree > with whoever wrote about DE Shaw and their stupid > insistence on old SAT scores. I hate this company > and this is the reason. I do not want to work for > them or anyone else who makes such stupid > generalizations. I don’t like snobs or arrogant > pr!cks, and such interview questions make me think > that I’d be working with a bunch of such types. > No thanks. There are plenty of other places that > get it. whomever asks for this information is looking to gather data. as much as they can so that it provides the best representation of that person’s abilities. if you think those who can’t pass the exams and those who can have no difference between them, statistically, in aggregate, then you obviously have learned nothing in your studies. wasn’t there an example in the CFA LI stats section about how SAT scores tended to predict GPA scores. From the same line of reasoning, I would expect GPA scores to predict CFA pass rates. obviously there is some error in GPA’s ability to predict if someone will pass a CFA exam, like any variable, but it should be a good predictor based on the fact that the learning style, content, and testing style is similar. GPA, SAT scores, and CFA pass rates would all help in predicting IQ. if you believe otherwise, you must believe that the CFA program has no academic value whatsoever, and is not worth doing. i find it hilarious when someone in the CFA program tries to diminish its value to the point where they think preparedness and intelligence have no predictive value of pass rates. both of these factors are well represented by one’s GPA btw. so i’ll say again, if the interviewee has a GPA of 4.0 because he is so intelligent, hard working and prepared, then an interviewer should be mighty confused if this candidate cannot pass a six hour exam on not so complicated financial topics that must be known to a t if one wants to excel in the prospective job. now if this 4.0 GPA guy gets asked if he failed a CFA exam and says “yes, i’ve failed, but a parent died that year so it was difficult for me to get properly prepared”, then the interviewer isn’t going to count that against you.
Re: DE Shaw elitism. If you’re a Rhodes Scholar or such, there’s a good chance that you are elitist as well. DE Shaw’s advertisement targets such elite and probably elitist people. Normal people might be offended, but they don’t care.
MattLikesAnalysis Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > > wasn’t there an example in the CFA LI stats > section about how SAT scores tended to predict GPA > scores. From the same line of reasoning, I would > expect GPA scores to predict CFA pass rates. > obviously there is some error in GPA’s ability to > predict if someone will pass a CFA exam, like any > variable, but it should be a good predictor based > on the fact that the learning style, content, and > testing style is similar. GPA, SAT scores, and CFA > pass rates would all help in predicting IQ. if you > believe otherwise, you must believe that the CFA > program has no academic value whatsoever, and is > not worth doing. > > i find it hilarious when someone in the CFA > program tries to diminish its value to the point > where they think preparedness and intelligence > have no predictive value of pass rates. both of > these factors are well represented by one’s GPA > btw. > Sorry, your arguments are totally wrong. The SAT was designed to predict how well you do in college. If you already went to college and got grades, SAT scores are now meaningless. You have solid results now, why should anyone care about the preliminary estimate of how you may do?? I know quite a few people that didn’t do well on SAT’s and got stellar scores in top 10 universities because they just started to work hard. And the fact that the SAT’s have changed so much, it’s not even an apples-apples comparison. What’s incredibly sad is how you actually think the SAT, GPA or the CFA exams actually predict someone’s IQ. That is completely and utterly misguided.
Of course IQ doesn’t really predict success so… If I could only have one objective data point to gauge someone, I’d ask for their GMAT score.
Well, certainly there is some luck involved. However, SAT scores, GPA and CFA pass rates are probably positively correlated with intelligence and work ethic. Why would they not be? You should not use them as the only criteria when hiring people, but I don’t see why these don’t provide information that might be at least slightly useful.