I don’t see any problem whatsoever with either asking, or answering a factual yes/no question such as “did you pass on the first attempt”. As long as you don’t violate CFA ethics by claiming superior skills or some higher degree of the credential, I also don’t see anything wrong with someone taking personal pride and satisfaction from the fact that they did NOT fail the exam. I see no special nobility associated with failure as far as the CFA exams are concerned. I think passing all three exams on the first try generally requires a greater degree of determination and hard work, especially when one takes the time to truly master the curriculum. There are many “good” reasons and excuses that someone could use for failing the exam. It is certainly a difficult exam and requires no small amount of time and effort. Still, there are many other people who faced similar challenges and did not fail the exam. Personally, I prefer being in that latter category and would not be afraid to say so when asked.
DoubleDip Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > ugh so many things wrong with the above statement > I don’t even know where to start… > There are very successful people on this very > board who did extremely well in school yet did not > pass the exams first time out, maybe because they > didn’t have enough time to pass them, maybe they > are just very good at doing well in a classroom > environment but not on a more ambiguous exam, > maybe they had personal tragedies going on or > maybe they just didn’t manage their time well, who > knows. But let me say this: passing these exams > DOES NOT imply that you are smart. I know plenty > of people I do not consider to be smart who > passed. For example, how can a non-quant > marketing-type person pass all three levels of the > exam? I don’t know. But they do! And yes, you > have to prepare for the exams as you might do in > school, but at least some of the grade depends on > how well you executed the exam. What about people > who don’t speak English as their native language? > Would you think that because they may not have > passed the first time, this indicates that they > are not smart, OR, maybe, that they were not > well-prepared to face the exam format? I agree > with whoever wrote about DE Shaw and their stupid > insistence on old SAT scores. I hate this company > and this is the reason. I do not want to work for > them or anyone else who makes such stupid > generalizations. I don’t like snobs or arrogant > pr!cks, and such interview questions make me think > that I’d be working with a bunch of such types. > No thanks. There are plenty of other places that > get it. You ask how a Non-quant marketing type can pass the exam? I have met plenty of very intelligent people in marketing. You must be a hurting geek.
supersadface Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Disclosure: I picture myself as tomato soup, with > a grilled cheese sandwich. Nice! just like mom used to make. I consider myself more of a Bun Bo Hue
> > > whomever asks for this information is looking to > gather data. as much as they can so that it > provides the best representation of that person’s > abilities. if you think those who can’t pass the > exams and those who can have no difference between > them, statistically, in aggregate, then you > obviously have learned nothing in your studies. > > wasn’t there an example in the CFA LI stats > section about how SAT scores tended to predict GPA > scores. From the same line of reasoning, I would > expect GPA scores to predict CFA pass rates. > obviously there is some error in GPA’s ability to > predict if someone will pass a CFA exam, like any > variable, but it should be a good predictor based > on the fact that the learning style, content, and > testing style is similar. GPA, SAT scores, and CFA > pass rates would all help in predicting IQ. if you > believe otherwise, you must believe that the CFA > program has no academic value whatsoever, and is > not worth doing. > > i find it hilarious when someone in the CFA > program tries to diminish its value to the point > where they think preparedness and intelligence > have no predictive value of pass rates. both of > these factors are well represented by one’s GPA > btw. > > so i’ll say again, if the interviewee has a GPA of > 4.0 because he is so intelligent, hard working and > prepared, then an interviewer should be mighty > confused if this candidate cannot pass a six hour > exam on not so complicated financial topics that > must be known to a t if one wants to excel in the > prospective job. > > now if this 4.0 GPA guy gets asked if he failed a > CFA exam and says “yes, i’ve failed, but a parent > died that year so it was difficult for me to get > properly prepared”, then the interviewer isn’t > going to count that against you. MattLikesAnalysis is right on. He’s not thinking with his heart. He understands statistics. The World would be a better place if everyone else did as well. I would be worse off personally though. If you take a random sample of 1000 people that passed all three exams on the first try and compared them to a random sample of 1000 people that failed any level, the median IQ, GMAT, grades(high school, college, whatever), height, income, and (1/BMI)(adjusting for sex of course) of those with a failure will be lower than the other group. I would guess the probability of this not being the case is far less than .01% for all categories. If anyone thinks otherwise, I will gladly separate you from your hard earned wages with a friendly wager. We would have to negotiate how the study would be funded. Buying a home in Malibu with my winnings would be cool. I’ll name it “The Bell Curve Estate.” BUT, this does not guarantee that any one individual from the failure group has lower metrics than any individual of the other group. It is only an indicator. The very best and brightest COULD be from the failure group, but it is not likely. The book, The Bell Curve, stated the average IQ of Asian Americans is 104, which by definition means they are four points smarter than the average American as a group. I’m not Asian and this does not offend me in the least. I wouldn’t even argue with the conclusion. It doesn’t say anything about me. I’m not average(and IQ test aren’t perfect anyway, though they are highly correlated with with academic and professional achievement), but an interviewer might not know that I’m not average. If they wanted the candidate with the highest IQ(probably a silly criteria in isolation. I would hope other criteria would be considered as well), the onus would be on me to demonstrate why my IQ is higher than an Asian candidate’s. This may or may not be the case. If I was average, my IQ would indeed be lower than the average Asian American candidate. If the only thing that the potential employer knew about me was my race and the only thing they care about is IQ, they should definitely pick the Asian American candidate. Wouldn’t bother me at all. I would wonder why they didn’t spend a little more to find out a little more about us. Maybe have somebody read a CV or start a conversation with the candidates. Just staring at people would be a strange way to find employees, but I wouldn’t necessarily find it unfair or ignorant. Most people use as many indicators as they can get their hands on to make a decision. There is no other way, is there?
MattLikesAnalysis Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > DoubleDip Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > ugh so many things wrong with the above > statement > > I don’t even know where to start… > > There are very successful people on this very > > board who did extremely well in school yet did > not > > pass the exams first time out, maybe because > they > > didn’t have enough time to pass them, maybe > they > > are just very good at doing well in a classroom > > environment but not on a more ambiguous exam, > > maybe they had personal tragedies going on or > > maybe they just didn’t manage their time well, > who > > knows. But let me say this: passing these > exams > > DOES NOT imply that you are smart. I know > plenty > > of people I do not consider to be smart who > > passed. For example, how can a non-quant > > marketing-type person pass all three levels of > the > > exam? I don’t know. But they do! And yes, > you > > have to prepare for the exams as you might do > in > > school, but at least some of the grade depends > on > > how well you executed the exam. What about > people > > who don’t speak English as their native > language? > > Would you think that because they may not have > > passed the first time, this indicates that they > > are not smart, OR, maybe, that they were not > > well-prepared to face the exam format? I agree > > with whoever wrote about DE Shaw and their > stupid > > insistence on old SAT scores. I hate this > company > > and this is the reason. I do not want to work > for > > them or anyone else who makes such stupid > > generalizations. I don’t like snobs or > arrogant > > pr!cks, and such interview questions make me > think > > that I’d be working with a bunch of such types. > > > No thanks. There are plenty of other places > that > > get it. > > > whomever asks for this information is looking to > gather data. as much as they can so that it > provides the best representation of that person’s > abilities. if you think those who can’t pass the > exams and those who can have no difference between > them, statistically, in aggregate, then you > obviously have learned nothing in your studies. > > wasn’t there an example in the CFA LI stats > section about how SAT scores tended to predict GPA > scores. From the same line of reasoning, I would > expect GPA scores to predict CFA pass rates. > obviously there is some error in GPA’s ability to > predict if someone will pass a CFA exam, like any > variable, but it should be a good predictor based > on the fact that the learning style, content, and > testing style is similar. GPA, SAT scores, and CFA > pass rates would all help in predicting IQ. if you > believe otherwise, you must believe that the CFA > program has no academic value whatsoever, and is > not worth doing. > > i find it hilarious when someone in the CFA > program tries to diminish its value to the point > where they think preparedness and intelligence > have no predictive value of pass rates. both of > these factors are well represented by one’s GPA > btw. > > so i’ll say again, if the interviewee has a GPA of > 4.0 because he is so intelligent, hard working and > prepared, then an interviewer should be mighty > confused if this candidate cannot pass a six hour > exam on not so complicated financial topics that > must be known to a t if one wants to excel in the > prospective job. > > now if this 4.0 GPA guy gets asked if he failed a > CFA exam and says “yes, i’ve failed, but a parent > died that year so it was difficult for me to get > properly prepared”, then the interviewer isn’t > going to count that against you. It was level three where I saw that high school GPA to University GPA correlation example, which I believe was oddly in the Econ section of the 2011 L3 text. Either way, I can see you point in gathering the data to make an assessment but the reality is there are regime changes that make old data irrelevant. Due to the fact that people (well at least some people) change and mature over time asking for SAT scores from high school is ridiculous. As a personal example, when I was a seventeen year old highschool student being the type of person I was I was far more likely to end up in jail or dead before I was thirty then become the type of person I am now. People change and random events can have a significant impact on results regardless of work ethic or intelligence. Assessing people by metrics such as test results should carry the same caveat as investment performance figures; “past performance is not an indication of future returns.”
murders&executions Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > brain_wash_your_face Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > > Actually, I would answer yes because I obtained > the charter on my first attempt. I did not attempt > to obtain my charter, drop out of the process and > then start it again. I however did not pass each > test on my first attempt. This. Akin to I did not have sexual relations with that woman. Entirely defensible.
To me there is nothing wrong with asking this question. It gives the interviewer an idea of how you handle a difficult task and in cases where the interviewee has falied a level or two but still completed the designation indicates that the candidate is serious and willing to stick with a project or task despite adversity. To me it is a bigger issue if they have failed and decided to not complete the designation it indicates a red flag as to will this person stay with a difficult project despite initial delays or issues. As for SAT’s and GPAs once to a point they are irrelevant as work experience and performance is for more telling than any testing.
Regarding SAT, I think they are just screening for raw intelligence, just the way we screen for stocks. It won’t determine the final decision, but it’s a useful sifting tool…
bodhisattva Wrote: > It was level three where I saw that high school > GPA to University GPA correlation example, which I > believe was oddly in the Econ section of the 2011 > L3 text. > > Either way, I can see you point in gathering the > data to make an assessment but the reality is > there are regime changes that make old data > irrelevant. Due to the fact that people (well at > least some people) change and mature over time > asking for SAT scores from high school is > ridiculous. > > As a personal example, when I was a seventeen year > old highschool student being the type of person I > was I was far more likely to end up in jail or > dead before I was thirty then become the type of > person I am now. People change and random events > can have a significant impact on results > regardless of work ethic or intelligence. > Assessing people by metrics such as test results > should carry the same caveat as investment > performance figures; “past performance is not an > indication of future returns.” though i could see how an interviewer may be looking for “lifetime consistency” in your achievements. i personally wouldn’t care if the dude i’m going to hire was a bad high school student if he turned out to have good college scores and have his CFA exams passed, but some people might see the “inconsistency of achievement” as a weakness. i’m sure said person would mutter to himself “once a slacker, always a slacker”.
only present the ones showing passing results. iteracom Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > ask for your score records
comp_sci_kid Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > no mentions of Putnam, ACM, but they mention > International Math Olympiad which is for > highschool? good one. These guys (Math Olympiad) are no jokes. Over-achievers, very smart, train like maniacs and would definitely perform better than 10 CFAs combined.
Getting back to the original question, it reminds me a bit of when investment bankers often ask first-year MBA’s what their GPA is during internship interviews. Even at schools that have non-grade disclosure, this question can still be fair game. I think that interviewers may be curious to hear what your real answer is and why, but just as importantly they may be asking to see how you handle a potentially stressful situation. In other words, if you have a so-so GPA or didn’t pass the CFA exam on the first try, are you someone that will ramble on with excuse after excuse? Or will you keep your response simple and focus on what you learned from the apparent “failure”? Consider these two candidates who must answer the question of whether or not they passed the CFA exam on the first try: Candidate #1: “No, I didn’t pass them but I was really busy with other things in life. And, frankly, if I put my heart to it I could have aced the exams. But I was really busy with work, was sick for a while, and to top it off my friend’s grandma died. But it’s all good now.” Candidate #2: “No, I didn’t pass them on the first try, but I learned a lot through the experience, namely that fixed income is a non-trivial subject and was an area I needed to brush up on. I didn’t want to make excuses for my shortcomings and instead I focused on studying that topic, and passed the exams the next time around with top-bracket scores the next time around. Today I feel a lot more confident about my knowledge, and more importantly I understand how important it is to be perseverant and perpetually curious in order to succeed in this field.” Which one would you hire? Just my two cents
As a follow-up, my point is that if someone judges you on whether you passed the exams on the first try, so be it. But there are other things the interviewer may be looking for when asking you that question, and the best thing to do in my opinion is to handle it with grace and spin it as positively as possible. If you’re a personable individual and the interviewer likes you, I think this is actually the type of question that can help you ingratiate yourself even more if handled properly.
All else equal, I’d hire the person who passed all three levels on the first attempt as opposed to the person who took 10 total attempts to pass all three levels.
mo34 Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > comp_sci_kid Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > These guys (Math Olympiad) are no jokes. > Over-achievers, very smart, train like maniacs and > would definitely perform better than 10 CFAs > combined. Qualification: perform better in math and math related problems.