So I didn’t believe this at first, but since everyone here says it’s true I guess that there really were different forms of the exam given at different places. I think this is going to be a disaster. How is CFAI going to either a) set different MPS on the two forms or b) have different passing rates in different geographical areas? Imagine if the North American passing rate was 50% and the Asian passing rate was 40%. Imagine the reverse. If the MPS for North America is 212 and it’s 205 for China, every person who can afford a lawyer in North America and failed the exam will sue them - “Was the North American exam easier or are you just rewarding Chinese guys for not speaking English? Is that fair to my client?” CFAI has gotten pretty smug about avoiding legal challenges at least partly because it’s hard to make any claims of discrimination because there’s one test and it’s graded anonymously. They just blew that out of the water. When push comes to shove, I’ll bet CFAI makes the claim that they did it to prevent cheating. Then they will sound like that Business Week article discussed on AF some months ago (too lazy to find the link) that pointed out how common cheating on GMAT’s is in China and ended up sounding pretty racist. All their troubles with India might show up in some ugly way too. The time zone thing is a little problem (I think it’s pretty little although having your buddy in Shanghai call you with 8 hrs lead and say ‘reverse cash and carry’ or ‘Treynor-Black’ would be worth some points). If they want to solve this problem, make all exams start at 9 AM EST on one day. Would it really be that tough to take an exam starting at midnight or whatever that you have studied for many months? And if that disturbs your sleep schedule because you don’t live in the same time zone as Charlottesville, well, tough. Just add it to all the other things that you envy about Americans.
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i could be wrong but i think from discussion there were very minor changes. for example, in a question where japan may be the answer in the US, germany may be the answer for the same question in asiapac…meaning they just switched the names around.
9am GMT would be reasonable. Centre of the world and all.
I have a bigger issue with the exam being the same for those who do it on Sunday.
JoeyDVivre Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- If they want to solve this problem, > make all exams start at 9 AM EST on one day. > Would it really be that tough to take an exam > starting at midnight or whatever that you have > studied for many months? > > And if that disturbs your sleep schedule because > you don’t live in the same time zone as > Charlottesville, well, tough. Just add it to all > the other things that you envy about Americans. I think your joking but if not, I can’t believe you don’t see how ridiculously bias that would be for people writting in the EST and the legal challenges that would bring. Easy for you and me (I live one hr ahead) but how in the F is that fair in like Australia where it is like 2 or 3 AM??? Don’t you see what a logistical nightmare that would be…you need security for buildings etc. Step back a bit and look at the bigger picture. What CFAI did was dumb, but maybe if they weren’t trying to have a 4 hr test in 3 hrs it wouldn’t be a problem. The answer isn’t to destroy the Charter’s dignity outside of NA as this would do. Good grief. I’m willing to bet almost no one cheats beyond Level I using timezone arbitrage…and what good is that in L1 where they test everything!
I don’t think one could make a good legal case against CFAI. The difference in the questions seems to very minor. From reading the posts, the differences were like either a figure was simply changed or the question tested exactly the opposite (call vs put). Bet, you wouldn’t find a lawyer willing to take that on contingency…
from the q’s that we’ve discussed so far, it seems more that people can’t remember the exact wording of the exams instead of the exams being drastically different. maybe a fixed payer vs receiver or a few different numbers in a plug and chug question, but overwhelmingly it seemed like the test was pretty close to the same thing. no way you could start an exam worldwide at the same time. that’s not feasible. i’m fine with the 5050/5151 and 6060/6161 versions to prevent cheating. whatever “standards” apply i’d venture to think would apply to both and if someone thinks they can in the future arb the test by taking the test in africa or china or dubai or london or san fran, get on a plane and go for it. i should’ve just zoned in a little bit harder and nailed 1 or 2 more easy ones i botched. we’ll see what pass rates look like in a few months and if certain regions tend to do better than others, but i want to believe that this isn’t going to be a huge deal.
some thoughts: 1. having taken the 6060/6161 in Sydney I can tell you that the differences were not trivial. Not just minor differences in detail, but whole topics were different in several cases. Memory is hazy now but probably 2 or 3 items sets out of 10 in BOTH am and pm sessions were very different - ie tested different aspects or different topics altogether. See numerous posts on AF 2. Whether CFAI comes clean or not, this will result in a 2-class system - when you say you got your CFA charter, it will trigger the immediate next question (eg from employers): “yes but where did you take it?” Whether real or not, the implication will be that there is a “Real CFA” ie US (+ perhaps UK), then there is the 2nd class CFA - ie Asia. There will be the perception of different questions to cater for language difficulties, building the brand (numbers) in Asia, going soft, etc 3. not sure if this is altogther a bad thing - eg CA, CPA, CFP, etc are all locally run. Only CFA sets out to be a single, transportable, global standard with a supposedly single global exam. 4. if the format is going to be a 6 hour exam over 8 hours, then it can be run better to minimise time zone arbitrage PLUS run exactly the same exam. Only 1 minor change is needed in terms of the exam itself - that the topics aren’t mixed between sessions - ie cover Ethics, econ, quant, FSA in the morning, and then the rest in afternoon (or whatever). this is no big deal, but it allows better time-tabling - below 5. most westerly exam centre is Hawawii @ GMT-10 and most easterly is Aukland @ GMT+12. If we exclude both of these centres as outliers we have: Most Westerly = US west coast @ GMT-8, and Most Easterly = Sydney @ GMT+10. (can still run in Hawaii and Aukland, but candidates might want to travel to get better sitting time - see below) 6. Running the exam at exactly the same time globally ends up with people doing it at all hours - unreasonable. 7. But if the times were staggered it can be done. If the topics were split between am and pm sessions then the exams can be staggered so they start up to 9 hours apart (8 hours for the exams + say 1 hour for logistically getting in and getting out of the exam room) 8. Run the timetable as follows (times are in Local Time): - US west coast (GMT-8) Lead/Lag = +4.5 hours. Starts 7:00. Ends 15:00. - US East coast (GMT-5) Lead/Lag = +4.5 hurs. Starts 10:00. Ends 18:00 - London (GMT) - Lead/lag = 0. Starts 10:30. Ends 18:30 - India (GMT+5.5) Lead/Lag = -4.5 hrs. Starts 11:30. Ends 19:30 - Beijing, HK, Singapore (GMT +8). Lead/Lag = -4.5 hrs. Starts 14:00. Ends 22:00 hrs - Aust East (GMT+10). Lead/Lag = -4.5 hrs. Starts 16:00. Ends 0.00 This caters for the extremes, The others fit in easily: - Moscow, Middle East, East Africa (GMT +3). Can use same lead/lag as India - Sth America (GMT-3) - can choose within a 0 to +4.5 hour window - etc, etc 9. This results in 1 global timetable - exactly the same exam, eliminates time-zone arbitrage opportunity - eliminates perceptions of bias, differences, 2-class system, etc. 10. leading up to exam day, candidate’s timetables are out of whack anyway, so the above exam times are completely doable and reasonable. A small sacrifice to pay for the benefits of a much fairer and consistent outcome. I’m sure that many PhDs have spend months on this issue in the CFAI, but it is doable - there IS a better way! thoughts…?
bannisja Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > from the q’s that we’ve discussed so far, it seems > more that people can’t remember the exact wording > of the exams instead of the exams being > drastically different. maybe a fixed payer vs > receiver or a few different numbers in a plug and > chug question, but overwhelmingly it seemed like > the test was pretty close to the same thing. no > way you could start an exam worldwide at the same > time. that’s not feasible. i’m fine with the > 5050/5151 and 6060/6161 versions to prevent > cheating. whatever “standards” apply i’d venture > to think would apply to both and if someone thinks > they can in the future arb the test by taking the > test in africa or china or dubai or london or san > fran, get on a plane and go for it. i should’ve > just zoned in a little bit harder and nailed 1 or > 2 more easy ones i botched. we’ll see what pass > rates look like in a few months and if certain > regions tend to do better than others, but i want > to believe that this isn’t going to be a huge > deal. well i don’t want to get into specifics… but when you have certain key topics vignettes (for eg ethics , swaps) completely different i would think the differences were huge… My suggestion is conduct CFA test in US only where all the candidates can fly and take the test… (like it happens in CPA) so tht there is no time arb… of course the cost of the program would increase but that would serve two purposes: 1) It would weed out non serious candidates ( That is what CFAI is trying to do if other AFers’ are to be believed) 2) It would enhance the integrity of CFA as the gold standard… I for one believes the designation is worth the increased cost.
i dont have issues with different vignettes in general across time zones.But Ethics ?..that shiznit should be the same everywhere. how do you even guage what is difficult and waht is easy in ethics. it is a bunch of unreal conventions
then there is the little matter of the 90 days it takes them to score a multiple choice exam! Jeb Bush would be proud! It reeks of a whole lotta fiddlin’ with the numbers - especially to cater for the new-found font of revenue - Asia. Make everybody sit the same exam - and make the marking completely impartial. As far as the cost goes - CFA is more respected and useful than about 90% of Finance degrees in the world - for a total cost of just a few percent of a finance degree. 10 grand to fly to the US and spend a couple of weeks of final prep would be a great experience - and still cost a fraction of most finance degrees. I for one would do it… Problem is that would lead to competitor bodies in UK/Europe and Asia - a la India. To keep control the CFAI needs to go global but still keep control and credabiliy intact. Maybe multiple choice from 2 is the answer! Why fiddle around with 3 - go straight to 2 and get it done with!
what if … the ppl cannot get the visa to fly to USA … and if they are lucky enough to get one they have to go through the stupid ****** DHS security clearance… and probably pose naked in front of DHS staff members ( do you guys remember the Abu Gharib Prison) and probably have to do some dog tricks … I think american candidates will have an advantage over the ones travelling to USA … and not to mention the immigration staff who can take up 2 to 3 hours for immigration clearance and the customs staff (they will rip you suitcase for finding chemical weapons or WMD)… dude you have to take a shit lot of crap to just get into USA … and I dont think the candidates travelling for the exam will be in their best mental state for the exam. Plus CFAI will be very uncompetitive bcoz all other UK bodies like ACCA/CIMA/ etc have their exams conducted in different countries… I think its time now for Americans to think on equal footing with other nations… think global not American … as it should be clear after the subprime shit … that the world can also do okay without American might … and I think CFAI recognizes this fact and is trying to maintain stronghold in Asia … Its not anything antiAmerican, its just a wake up call for conservatives… who are always illusioned by Supremacy of being American…
hmmmm… the american century has only been dead for 8 years - takes time for the americans to get used to it I guess. It’s now the asian century but the old regime will hang on for as long as it can with whatever means it can. Now…using abu graib as a CFA testing centre once the inmates are cleared out - now that’s an idea…
i think the idea of testing only in the US is ridiculous. also the comment about the two class system is equally ridiculous. If there is a 60% pass rate in asia pac and a 30% pass rate in the US then we have a problem. But if they are equal or consistent with historical averages (i’m not sure which country is historically higher) then I could care less. Based on the L3 forum it was only minor differences anyways.
i don’t think the cfai will ever reveal pass rates by region - wouldn’t mean anything anyway since they used different version of the exam - would just add to the speculation and confusion
the staggered model proposed above by null kinda makes sense. get everyone into a room with a cell phone jammer for 7 hours (the 2 hour break can be shortened). possession of a cell phone or any other communication device should be grounds for expulsion from program. and in any case the signals can be jammed quite easily around a building. have concessions on site so no one needs to leave. the other timezones start before anyone from the first can leave the center and make cell phone calls or send email. very doable. if it requires more than one administration per year, do that, but allow someone to take the test only once a year. etc etc. hmm…what about med / emergency evacs
I have sat different levels of the exam in both London and Sydney. While in Sydney there was always an opportunity to phone someone in London and find out what was on. However, the reality of doing this in say L2 makes it just not practical. Your friend tells you “Black Scholes is on”…what a surprise!! What am I going to do learn the thing from scratch that morning at 4am. Yes, you could get an edge across time zones but I think it is neglible especially when the exam is 100% multiple choice, there is just too much to cover and lets face it everything is tested. Anyone who was relying on cheating would be the sort of person to fail anyway. I do agree that the exams should be localised a little or provide options so you can specialise in FI or Eq or alternatives. Why do I need to know about US wealth planning??? I don’t care what an IRA is.
And in Europe we’re stuck-in-the-middle again…