I currently intern at one of those investment counsels IH8FSA posted. Nice environment. 9-5, but the PM does pull in a few more hours than the rest of us. No cold-calling whats so ever. Honestly, if I don’t find anything in the fields Im aiming for (research, ibanking) I’ll probably try to stick around for a year until the markets pick up.
IH8FSA, no one in their right mind would be getting their CFA if all they want is to become a bank broker. I know dozens upon dozens of bank advisors and to say that they aren’t sales people is just kidding yourself. There is nothing wrong with that job, but anyone here who is trying to get their CFA would be crazy to go into a bank program. As for the bigger groups that have PM’s who get handed the money to manage- see my above post. It’s not hard to find someone to put together an asset allocation in Morningstar, so don’t expect to ever make much money. I’ve been in this business a long time so I’m not talking out of school here. It would seem like a waste of time, to me, to get the CFA if all you end up doing is running hypo’s in Morningstar and Zephyr.
T2-Despite you being in the business for a long time it seems that you still don’t know what you are talking about on this topic. I find it hard to call someone a salesperson when no part of their comp is tied to products. If your performance is based on true performance of assets and other tasks that are not sales focused (ie-monitoring IPSs, meeting with clients, buying/selling securities, structuring a portfolio, etc) then how is that sales? How is that the same as running an AA in Morningstar? I think you are confusing a PM @ a asset management shop and a bank financial advisor…
well…I can see little bit what is T2 talking about. Over in my firm, the PM don’t have to sell directly to the client; however, they do have to “sell” their investment portoflio, their ideas, their investment process to other internal business partners (trust department, foundation department, HNW client group ect, ect). The PM also go on joint calls with the relationship manager/broker/advisor/those who manager the relationship and try to close the deal. A big part of my role is to build good relationship with my internal contacts so they will come to me for investment solution for their clients. tvPM, I know exactly what you are saying. However, it is hard to be a PURE PM these days.
ws- I hear you on the pure PM part…that was one of the main reasons I left my previous post. I guess I assume that just cuz one firm changes focus (due to being bought) that others in the industry would keep their original focus. I just dont think its fair to liken a PM at one of those places to the dude at the retail bank on the corner.
WS, how does that work exactly. Is it that you have a portfolio and an investment process, and you try to convince the relationship managers/salesforce to get their clients to put their $$ in your process (and obviously get introduced to clients by the relationship managers to help close the deal)? I assume that that means you’d be competing with other PMs in the same firm for those client funds (which is fine, one’s always competing with *someone*). If so, that means you need to have a process that is highly tuned to some client needs - either offering diversification benefits, special liquidity needs, whatever.
bchadwick Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > T2 Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > It’s important to understand that the real > value > > in HNW groups is bringing in the business. You > can > > be a relationship manager or PM for a private > > bank, but you’ll never make more than $150k or > so. > > The people who bring in these accounts are the > > ones who get paid. Any program that hands you > > clients is going to be crap, there is no such > > thing as a HNW group that just hands you > $1million > > clients. > > This is more or less what I expected; I just > wanted to check, because it looked like there > might be other routes I hadn’t considered. I do > think that after a bit of time with an existing > client book, I actually could grow thru referrals > or even direct marketing, but starting from zero > doesn’t sound like something I’d be competitive > at. actually, there is a way. my company doesnt have us prospect and our HNW managers are given a book of around 100 clients to manage. average book is around 1B in AUM. no cold calling and the clients pretty much come to us. our company has an outstanding brand loyalty though. more so than just about any other co in the nation
I’d like to know what firm this is (curious), hints?
tvPM. “The crap places in my opinion are the ones that want their PMs to be running around looking for clients instead of focusing on asset management(this is a financial advisor type model, asset gathering rather than good management” Right on the button. Storko, Before your interview, I ***STRONGLY*** suggest that you read Chapter 8 and CHapter 11 of Intelligent Investor by Benjamin Graham. I think I got the chapters correct but these would be the chapters on “Mr. Market” and " margin of Safety" All the best
no sir. cant do it. but we have the CFAs that manage our discretionary models. they do have a sweet gig. im a relationship manager and have the option to get a book to manage, but they really want you to do that long term. if i could, i would join the cfas in our back office in a moment. of course, those jobs are hard to come by and they wont even look at you if you dont have a cfa. i think they have about 20-30 CFAs working in a few teams. thinking comp is usually around 80 for the newer less experienced ones all the way up to several hundred thousand for the bosses.
storko, for your interview. make sure you show them you have personal and technical ability to explain to a HNW member why they lost so much money last year. “short term market fluctuations shouldnt impact long term strategy…etc” they no doubt have a lot of PO’ed clients like most private asset management co’s. might want to mention your ability to cut through the clutter and show ordinary rich people that you can still bring value even though you lost 40%.
tvPM Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > ws- I hear you on the pure PM part…that was one > of the main reasons I left my previous post. I > guess I assume that just cuz one firm changes > focus (due to being bought) that others in the > industry would keep their original focus. I just > dont think its fair to liken a PM at one of those > places to the dude at the retail bank on the > corner. 100% with you there.
“I think you are confusing a PM @ a asset management shop and a bank financial advisor…” Please give me an example of a “PM at an asset management shop” because I know many PM’s a large private banks who make very little money relative to their education. SkipE99’s post is basically what I was saying, any firm that hands you clients isn’t going to pay you much because landing the clients is the hard (and valuable) part. If you want to slave through the CFA in order to get an $80k job, be my guest, but I personally wouldn’t do it.
T2 Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > IH8FSA, no one in their right mind would be > getting their CFA if all they want is to become a > bank broker. I know dozens upon dozens of bank > advisors and to say that they aren’t sales people > is just kidding yourself. There is nothing wrong > with that job, but anyone here who is trying to > get their CFA would be crazy to go into a bank > program. As for the bigger groups that have PM’s > who get handed the money to manage- see my above > post. It’s not hard to find someone to put > together an asset allocation in Morningstar, so > don’t expect to ever make much money. I’ve been in > this business a long time so I’m not talking out > of school here. It would seem like a waste of > time, to me, to get the CFA if all you end up > doing is running hypo’s in Morningstar and Zephyr. T2, Your still confused I think. We dont use Morningstar/ Bloomberg, I see the guys in the Advisor business using these tools etc. None of our compensation is commisiion based on product sales. There are no sales. You clearly do not work in the field of “Discretionary” wealth management. We do not get commission on the trades we place, and there are no “products” to sell. Plain and simple the more assets under our management , the greater the revenue generated, the great A client comes in, we create an IPS, determine the securities to hold on the portfolio based on their risk/return characteristics, and then we monitor the portfolio. If they need a cash disbursement, we determine what to sell, then monitor the changes in their asset allocation if necessary. If they need tax loss selling, we determine which securities in their portfolio are the best suited to trigger losses to offset previous 3 year cap gains. If they want to donate stock to charity, we will monitor this as well. Does the client have specific stocks that they would like to hold due to an emotional connection, or previous stock from company share purchases that they dont want to get rid of? well we will have to determine how to best incorporate this into their overall asset mix as well. We meet with the client annualy to determine if anything has changed in their life that would require increase/decrease in fixed income portfolios should they require more income. Have they inhereted money which would now allow their portfolio to take on more equity risk. The above is not handled by Financial Planners or Investment Advisors. Those guys get their PFP/CFP and or some trading courses and thats it. All the “Investment Counsellors” here are AT MINIMUM CFA Charter holders, and most have additional credentials such as MBA’s or CA’s. Actually, in Ontario, under the Ontario Securities Exchange commision, we have to be registered by them as an “Investment Counsellor” and the minimum is 2 years experience AND MINIMUM PASSING OF CFA Level 1.
T2 Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > “I think you are confusing a PM @ a asset > management shop and a bank financial advisor…” > > Please give me an example of a “PM at an asset > management shop” because I know many PM’s a large > private banks who make very little money relative > to their education. SkipE99’s post is basically > what I was saying, any firm that hands you clients > isn’t going to pay you much because landing the > clients is the hard (and valuable) part. If you > want to slave through the CFA in order to get an > $80k job, be my guest, but I personally wouldn’t > do it. this is true. the HNW managers that are handed their books earn anywhere from 70k-115k. then they are pretty much capped. but it is a 9-5er with all weekends off.
bchadwick Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > WS, how does that work exactly. Is it that you > have a portfolio and an investment process, and > you try to convince the relationship > managers/salesforce to get their clients to put > their $$ in your process (and obviously get > introduced to clients by the relationship managers > to help close the deal)? Salesforce can go with outside managers too (SMA), however, they are encouraged to use interanl PMs. I have to constantly stay in front of my salesforce to tell them the importance of diverisfication, IPS, rebalance frequency. Sometimes, I almost feel like I am a internal wholesalers to my salesteam. > > I assume that that means you’d be competing with > other PMs in the same firm for those client funds > (which is fine, one’s always competing with > *someone*). Yes, I am competeing with other PM in my region, and outside SMA managers. > > If so, that means you need to have a process that > is highly tuned to some client needs - either > offering diversification benefits, special > liquidity needs, whatever. You need to be able to speak human languages (instead of investment worlds). Show IPS can benefit both client and advisors, explain the importance rebalancing frequency, offer tax stragety, ect.
“We do not get commission on the trades we place, and there are no “products” to sell.” What are you talking about? Of course I’m not talking about commissions, I’m talking about fee based. “The above is not handled by Financial Planners or Investment Advisors.” You are 100% wrong, I know thousands of planner and that’s EXACTLY what they do. Maybe things are different in Canada, I’m in the U.S. Anyways, my point remains that if you aren’t the one bringing in the business, you will never make that much money. Perhaps the model is different in Canada, but I know people in the private banking groups at all the largest US banks and the PM’s make peanuts compared to the rain makers.
SkipE99 Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > no sir. cant do it. but we have the CFAs that > manage our discretionary models. they do have a > sweet gig. im a relationship manager and have the > option to get a book to manage, but they really > want you to do that long term. if i could, i would > join the cfas in our back office in a moment. of > course, those jobs are hard to come by and they > wont even look at you if you dont have a cfa. i > think they have about 20-30 CFAs working in a few > teams. thinking comp is usually around 80 for the > newer less experienced ones all the way up to > several hundred thousand for the bosses. Sounds like BoA (US Trust) model
TW-I guess I should restate that line. I think there is a difference between a retail bank advisor (at your local BAC branch), and someone that works as a PM with HNW people (whether that be at a private bank OR an asset management shop OR trust company, etc). An example of a AM shop, I dunno, probably the hundreds of them out there that manage money on behalf of an individual, foundation, endowment, etc. I dont have to list all the managers out there do I? The PMs that we work with at these places sure dont do any sales, they manage our portfolio. An example of a private bank or trust company…maybe a place like Bessemer Trust. I dont have salary figures (neither do you) to show what each person makes at a respective employer. And yes landing clients is a tough part, but you think that a company is going to take a $50M account and give it to someone they are paying low wages to? Why? So that person leaves, disrupts the relationship, or doesnt put in the effort to maintain the relationship thru performance and/or meetings? You compensate those people. Maybe not as much as the hedge fund PM, but not everyone wants that. To say that its dumb because you dont make as much money relative to your education is both a good point and completely irrelevant to the conversation.
T2, I didnt know you were in the US, this makes up for the confusion. And it seems from your explanation , I am VERY glad my job isnt there. We would NEVER make a sales call. Like I said before, I could be lucky where I wor, but we have a dedicated sales force that strictly sweeps through our banks Financial Planning Division/ Retail bank division to look for custmers with large assets who would like to move on to Discretionary Portfolio Management. Haha !!! You said another confusing word. 'Private Bankers" That is another division under our umbrella who also sends us clients. Yes, I have to admit, i got into a pretty sweet gig