tvPM, of course they have qualified PMs, but I know lots of PMs who work for prestigious asset managers, working with the ultra-high-net-worth, and they make surprisingly little money. Maybe I’m skewed, but I think $150k is not worth the trouble of the CFA. It’s simply not that hard to put together an asset allocation for a retail client, no matter how much money they have. Some of those PMs make more money as they move up the chain because of their ability to communicate with clients or the relationships they’ve built with them. This reinforces my point, however, that it’s the relationship with these investors that has value, not the ability to put together an asset allocation. That’s a fine job for many, but I think it’s important to realize where the value is created and that if your job is putting together allocations, you are basically just overhead and will have less job security in times like this.
ws Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > SkipE99 Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > no sir. cant do it. but we have the CFAs that > > manage our discretionary models. they do have a > > sweet gig. im a relationship manager and have > the > > option to get a book to manage, but they really > > want you to do that long term. if i could, i > would > > join the cfas in our back office in a moment. > of > > course, those jobs are hard to come by and they > > wont even look at you if you dont have a cfa. i > > think they have about 20-30 CFAs working in a > few > > teams. thinking comp is usually around 80 for > the > > newer less experienced ones all the way up to > > several hundred thousand for the bosses. > > Sounds like BoA (US Trust) model Maybe the old US Trust Model, but thats gone now since BoA bought them
So what about Harvard/Yale Endowments? What about CALPers? Simple asset allocations right? Not that hard to do right? T2 Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > tvPM, of course they have qualified PMs, but I > know lots of PMs who work for prestigious asset > managers, working with the ultra-high-net-worth, > and they make surprisingly little money. Maybe I’m > skewed, but I think $150k is not worth the trouble > of the CFA. > > It’s simply not that hard to put together an asset > allocation for a retail client, no matter how much > money they have. Some of those PMs make more money > as they move up the chain because of their ability > to communicate with clients or the relationships > they’ve built with them. This reinforces my point, > however, that it’s the relationship with these > investors that has value, not the ability to put > together an asset allocation. That’s a fine job > for many, but I think it’s important to realize > where the value is created and that if your job is > putting together allocations, you are basically > just overhead and will have less job security in > times like this.
tvPM Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Maybe the old US Trust Model, but thats gone now > since BoA bought them LOL, LOL, long gone!!
T2 Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > tvPM, of course they have qualified PMs, but I > know lots of PMs who work for prestigious asset > managers, working with the ultra-high-net-worth, > and they make surprisingly little money. Maybe I’m > skewed, but I think $150k is not worth the trouble > of the CFA. > > It’s simply not that hard to put together an asset > allocation for a retail client, no matter how much > money they have. Some of those PMs make more money > as they move up the chain because of their ability > to communicate with clients or the relationships > they’ve built with them. This reinforces my point, > however, that it’s the relationship with these > investors that has value, not the ability to put > together an asset allocation. That’s a fine job > for many, but I think it’s important to realize > where the value is created and that if your job is > putting together allocations, you are basically > just overhead and will have less job security in > times like this. Another ignorant comment. When you have a famil with $20 million liquid net worth and all that money is invested with you, and have built a relationship with them over 10 years. You get fired, so does that money. You will find that with discretinary, and brings a full circle back to the trust issue. Some of these PM’s only deal with +5 Mil clients.
Since when are we talking about major pension plans? Are you comparing yourself to the CIO at CALPERS?
BofA! not even close. nice try though
yes I am. Your comment is that being a PM is easy as all you do is do an asset allocation no matter the asset level. So it must be just as easy to do for a $180B account as a $25,000 account, right? Don’t you think that Dave Swenson gets paid decent (I know, he could make more as a surgeon moonlighting as a distressed PE manager) because his role is important? That his allocations, manager selections, etc are value added? So Yale has $20B or whatever, and maybe a PM is running accounts for clients with $25M, but its the same thing to that client.
"You will find that with discretinary, and brings a full circle back to the trust issue. " That’s exactly the point that I just made, did you even read my post? The value that you bring is in the relationship, whether it’s bringing in the business or retaining it. That’s my only point, these jobs are less about technical skills than relationship skills. If you are interested in relationship skills, this is not a good route to go down because you won’t make much money.
T2 The key line where you are probably getting the 2 busienss mixed up can be found in the below profile for Deutsche banks Discretionary Division. “Clients who wish to play a more active role in investment decision-making may find our Active Advisory more closely suits their needs” http://www.db.com/pwm/en/select-services-dpm.html Discretionary Portfolio Management Finding time to manage investments effectively in today’s fast-moving markets can be difficult. Deutsche Bank’s worldwide network of investment experts covers every major international market. Our unique Global House View is backed by expertise at both the regional and local level. Discretionary Portfolio Management puts these resources to work for you through the services of a Portfolio Manager who handles all the day-to-day management of your account. We provide regular performance reporting, freeing you to concentrate on other matters. In Line With Your Investment Strategy Working from the personal investment strategy devised for you, which takes into account your risk preferences and overall goals, our Portfolio Management team will seek to select suitable investments for you. Your financial goals – such as aggressive growth, growth, income or security – will be reflected in the selection of asset classes such as bonds and equities or alternative investments and foreign exchange – with each one given the appropriate weighting. Active Management Contact Us Speak to one of our Relationship Managers Through ongoing active investment management, portfolios are regularly monitored to see that they continue to perform as intended. Our aim is to maintain a carefully-constructed portfolio positioned to deliver in accordance with your agreed investment strategy. Clients who wish to play a more active role in investment decision-making may find our Active Advisory more closely suits their needs. discretionary portfolio management Definition Investment account arrangement in which an investment manager makes the buy-sell decisions without referring to the account owner (client) for every transaction. The manager, however, must operate within the agreed upon limits to achieve the client’s stated investment objectives. http://www.businessdictionary.com/definition/discretionary-portfolio-management.html http://books.google.ca/books?id=uQOYqEqIiBcC&pg=PA146&lpg=PA146&dq=discretionary+wealth+manager&source=bl&ots=Ae0zr5lqCG&sig=Qm0XHQL1uL452m2E1syTclJOXok&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=10&ct=result http://www.abnamroprivatebanking.com/switzerland/discretionary-portfollio-management#switzerland/discretionary-portfollio-management http://www.charles-stanley.co.uk/DiscretionaryManagement.jsp You simply agree your investment goals with your Investment Manager, and then allow us to take care of monitoring your holdings and making the investment decisions regarding the content of your portfolio. Your Investment Manager will provide you with regular reviews and valuations of your portfolio. If you wish, you may also access your valuations and statements via this website.
“So Yale has $20B or whatever, and maybe a PM is running accounts for clients with $25M, but its the same thing to that client.” I think that 90% of this industry is complete BS and it’s built around the PERCEPTION of value rather than real value added. How did Harvard’s endowment do last year, by the way? Anyways, the idea that the average HNW investor is going to be scrutinizing your returns for alpha the way that an institutional board will is simply absurd. The most successful HNW PMs and Advisors are successful because of their relationships, not performance.
IH8FSA Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Currently in this field. > I got reemed out by my boss for wearing > a black shirt. Rightfully so
IH8FSA, there is absolutely no misunderstanding here. I’m not even sure what you are arguing about at this point.
mpnoonan Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > IH8FSA Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > Currently in this field. > > I got reemed out by my boss for wearing > > a black shirt. > > Rightfully so I guess your right. I have alot of nice clothes, but will have to proabbly donate them to someone in marketing.
to clarify: The most successful HNW PMs and Advisors are successful because of their relationships, not performance, while the most successful institutional investors are judged primarily on performance. This simply isn’t the case with HNW.
T2, I’m not arguin about anything. You work in the advising business in the US. I work in the discretionary area in canada. 2 separate things.
Now the industry is BS? Man you are just breaking down today. If you think that you can have lackluster performance for 10yrs and people will stick with you cuz you are funny in meetings then I think you are either mistaken or dealing with idiots. The idea that a HNW individual will scrutinize performance isn’t absurd, its realistic. Those people have time on their hands, handfuls of competitors that are happy to pick you apart for them. Dude if someone wants to be Mr. Relationship then be a Relationship Manager. If you want to manage the money then be the PM. As far as salaries, a good RM can make a bunch for bringing people in, a good PM can make a bunch for good performance and other metrics. The cap at 115k is a joke by the way. In my previous office the 3 PMs clocked that as their bonus.
T2, I dont like how you keep joining PM’s with the word “Advisors” One is discretionary and the other is not. Please review my job description from Deutsche bank, I will paste it again. “Clients who wish to play a more active role in investment decision-making may find our Active Advisory more closely suits their needs” http://www.db.com/pwm/en/select-services-dpm.html Discretionary Portfolio Management Finding time to manage investments effectively in today’s fast-moving markets can be difficult. Deutsche Bank’s worldwide network of investment experts covers every major international market. Our unique Global House View is backed by expertise at both the regional and local level. Discretionary Portfolio Management puts these resources to work for you through the services of a Portfolio Manager who handles all the day-to-day management of your account. We provide regular performance reporting, freeing you to concentrate on other matters. In Line With Your Investment Strategy Working from the personal investment strategy devised for you, which takes into account your risk preferences and overall goals, our Portfolio Management team will seek to select suitable investments for you. Your financial goals – such as aggressive growth, growth, income or security – will be reflected in the selection of asset classes such as bonds and equities or alternative investments and foreign exchange – with each one given the appropriate weighting. Active Management Contact Us Speak to one of our Relationship Managers Through ongoing active investment management, portfolios are regularly monitored to see that they continue to perform as intended. Our aim is to maintain a carefully-constructed portfolio positioned to deliver in accordance with your agreed investment strategy. Clients who wish to play a more active role in investment decision-making may find our Active Advisory more closely suits their needs.
T2 Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > to clarify: The most successful HNW PMs and > Advisors are successful because of their > relationships, not performance, while the most > successful institutional investors are judged > primarily on performance. This simply isn’t the > case with HNW. Without speaking from great experience, this makes sense to me. It’s not that performance doesn’t matter, it’s that the relationship skill is substantially more important than in the institutional world. Does one need to enter with the relationships established (obviously better if you do), or is it enough to have very good people skills (at which point, good PM skills are valuable too). It seems to me that there is a synergy here - the ideal person has good people skills, communication skills, and is a competent PM.
IH8-in the US, however, advisors can also manage money on a discretionary basis I believe.