I would be interested in hear AF’s thoughts on this article. http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/10360/1113309-373.stm The costly college scam Students go deep into debt, but for many it doesn’t pay off Sunday, December 26, 2010 By Jack Kelly, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette The biggest consumer ripoff in America today is a college education. Since 1981, tuition and fees have increased sixfold, while the consumer price index has risen just 250 percent. The rise in college costs has been especially fast in the last decade, and has reached heights that place enormous strain on middle class families. According to the College Board, tuition at public universities this academic year averages $7,605. At private schools, it averages $27,293. Room and board averages an additional $8,535 at public universities and $9,700 at private schools. There are noneconomic benefits to attending college. But the principal justification offered for its high cost has been greater lifetime earnings. “Over a lifetime, the gap in earning potential between a high school diploma and a bachelor of arts is more than $800,000. In other words, whatever sacrifices you and your child make for a college education in the short term are more than repaid in the long term,” the College Board says on its website. Mary Pilon of The Wall Street Journal discovered that figure was taken from a footnote in a 2007 report by a Skidmore College economics professor, and it distorted her research. Sandy Baum said a more reasonable estimate for the difference in lifetime earnings is $450,000. Dr. Mark Schneider of the American Institutes of Research said the actual difference is about $280,000. The average, whatever it is, is virtually meaningless. If you have a degree in physics or engineering, you’re almost certain to earn a great deal more than someone who stocks shelves at Wal Mart. But if your degree is in sociology or ethnic studies, you probably won’t earn as much as a plumber or an electrician. About 70 percent of high school graduates start college, but barely half of those earn a degree within the traditional four years. And many who do get a degree can find only those jobs for which college is not necessary. According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, of the 49.37 million college graduates who had jobs in 2008, 17.4 million were working in occupations requiring less than a bachelor’s degree. For instance, 29.8 percent of flight attendants had college degrees. So did 24.5 percent of retail salespersons, 17.4 percent of bellhops, 16.6 percent of secretaries,15.2 percent of taxi drivers and 13.9 percent of mail carriers. The proportion of Americans who attend college has increased dramatically in the last 20 years. But, according to Ohio University economics professor Richard Vedder, director of the Center for College Affordability and Productivity, those representing 60 percent of the increase since 1992 worked in low-skill jobs, some of which don’t even require a high school diploma. This is “the single most scandalous statistic in higher education,” Dr. Vedder said. What makes it more scandalous is that so many young people have gone deeply into debt to obtain degrees of little economic value. Student loan debt, $850 billion this year, now exceeds credit card debt. According to the Project on Student Debt, more than two thirds of students who were graduated in 2008 were in debt. The New York Times profiled in May the plight of Cortney Munna, who racked up nearly $100,000 in loans while earning a degree in religious and women’s studies at New York University. She works as a photographer’s assistant for $22 an hour. What makes Ms. Munna’s plight worse is that it is virtually impossible to discharge student loan debts in bankruptcy. The dropout rate and the proportion of college freshmen who must take remedial courses – about one third – suggest that about half of the students being admitted to college don’t belong there. And many who are capable of doing college work are taking garbage courses. The scam exists for the benefit of college teachers and administrators who make a comfortable living ripping off the gullible. If only people capable of doing college work were admitted to college, and only courses with academic value were offered, there would be fewer colleges and far fewer faculty. But the scam may be nearing its end. Since 1978, college tuition rose nearly twice as fast as housing prices did before the bust. “The student loan crisis looks remarkably like the subprime mortgage crisis,” according to Laura Rowley of Yahoo Finance. Peter Wood of the National Association of Scholars put it this way: “The price of attaining a college degree has skyrocketed while the rewards for attaining a college degree have slumped. If enough people notice this … the bubble will burst.” Jack Kelly is a columnist for the Post-Gazette and The (Toledo) Blade (jkelly@post-gazette.com, 412 263-1476). More articles by this author First published on December 26, 2010 at 12:00 am Read more: http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/10360/1113309-373.stm#ixzz1AAv5Hk17
I disagree with the article, the biggest rippoff in America is America itself.
Much of the first 2 years of undergrad is crap classes that you already took in high school such as english comp and algebra with are required before you get into your “core” classes. Why not do away with this and substitute in another year or two of in-depth core classes? I was a finance and marketing double major and had to take a history class where i already covered some of the stuff during highschool. My point is that high school needs to become more competitive, and have academic standards that are equivalent to the first 2 years of college. This would open up college classes to really going in depth on undergrad major subjects.
CFAcountry Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > In fact, many countries do have systems like this. The UK, for instance, has 2 years of “A-levels”, which are a bit harder than AP courses in the US. As a result, university degrees typically take 3 years in the UK, and UK students don’t have to go to undergraduate school first if they want to enroll in professional degree programs, like law or medicine. However, it’s worth mentioning that highly motivated US students have the flexibility to push themselves to higher academic standards than their peers - for instance, by taking a shitton of AP classes. The downside of flexibility is that less motivated students will be held to lower standards. So maybe the US education is like the US economy - it sacrifices the worst students to provide opportunities for the best students. As a result, quality is not uniform, but the US produces elite people (i.e. Bill Gates and similar) with a relatively high frequency.
The best schools are getting better (and thus more competitive) while the bad schools are getting worse. Pretty soon the only degrees that will be worth something will be from top schools only.
The problem of plumbers, electricians and mechanics earning too much can be solved by allowing more immigrants with these skills to flood the market. It dosen’t make any sense for these low skilled professions to pay as much as they do so now. Its a monopoly which needs to be busted (and thankfully slowly is, thanks to migrants from accross the border).
Too many people go to college in the US now. The fact that 70% of HS graduates go to college is ridiculous. Parents and society have to accept the fact that college is not the right path for everyone.
The explosion of the for-profit college scam has certainly contributed to the inflation of this bubble. Most Americans don’t understand that they do not need to spend $25,000 on a masseuse certificate program from an unaccredited school.
I wonder how many of the 70% are doing an online from University of Phoenix and the like…
looking at the past, people were only expected to graduate 8th grade, then they were expected to graduate high school. now, everyone (at least in my region and socioeconomic circle) is expected to get an undergrad degree. also, since i’m in the corporate world, i’m also expected to get an mba. So, can the current trend truly continue much further? will people be expected to get doctorates before they can get a decent job? I’m a big proponent of education in general, but i agree with some of the above posts; I think that there has to be an improvement in both high school and undergraduate education to make it more selective
higgmond Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Too many people go to college in the US now. The > fact that 70% of HS graduates go to college is > ridiculous. Parents and society have to accept > the fact that college is not the right path for > everyone. So your answer is a less educated, more ignorant populace? How come a country like Germany has practically free higher education and is graduating more college educated people with a lower unemployment rate than USA?
marcus phoenix Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > The problem of plumbers, electricians and > mechanics earning too much can be solved by > allowing more immigrants with these skills to > flood the market. It dosen’t make any sense for > these low skilled professions to pay as much as > they do so now. Its a monopoly which needs to be > busted (and thankfully slowly is, thanks to > migrants from accross the border). Good plumbers, electricians, and mechanics have valuable skills that most people on this board, myself included, could never dream of having. There would be a lot more tradesmen if would-be plumbers weren’t pressured into going to college to get a BA in some subject they have no interest in. I will agree with you though that trade unions are monopolies which need to be busted.
marcus phoenix Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > higgmond Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > Too many people go to college in the US now. > The > > fact that 70% of HS graduates go to college is > > ridiculous. Parents and society have to accept > > the fact that college is not the right path for > > everyone. > > > So your answer is a less educated, more ignorant > populace? How come a country like Germany has > practically free higher education and is > graduating more college educated people with a > lower unemployment rate than USA? I never realized you were such an elitist Marcus. Not having a college degree doesn’t make someone ignorant, it just means that academic learning is not for them. BTW, your personal hero, Julian Assange, is a college dropout.
higgmond Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > marcus phoenix Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > The problem of plumbers, electricians and > > mechanics earning too much can be solved by > > allowing more immigrants with these skills to > > flood the market. It dosen’t make any sense for > > these low skilled professions to pay as much as > > they do so now. Its a monopoly which needs to > be > > busted (and thankfully slowly is, thanks to > > migrants from accross the border). > > > Good plumbers, electricians, and mechanics have > valuable skills that most people on this board, > myself included, could never dream of having. > There would be a lot more tradesmen if would-be > plumbers weren’t pressured into going to college > to get a BA in some subject they have no interest > in. I will agree with you though that trade > unions are monopolies which need to be busted. I know someone who is a union plumber and he makes about 80k. He gets called in on “emergency work” - getting 24 hours notice - and then makes 80 bucks an hour.
CFAcountry Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > I wonder how many of the 70% are doing an online > from University of Phoenix and the like… Well for-profit colleges only account for 9% of college students, so I don’t think that’s a driving factor. I would reckon their students are disproportionally represented in those not achieving the positions they imagined.
higgmond Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > marcus phoenix Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > higgmond Wrote: > > > -------------------------------------------------- > > > ----- > > > Too many people go to college in the US now. > > The > > > fact that 70% of HS graduates go to college > is > > > ridiculous. Parents and society have to > accept > > > the fact that college is not the right path > for > > > everyone. > > > > > > So your answer is a less educated, more > ignorant > > populace? How come a country like Germany has > > practically free higher education and is > > graduating more college educated people with a > > lower unemployment rate than USA? > > I never realized you were such an elitist Marcus. > Not having a college degree doesn’t make someone > ignorant, it just means that academic learning is > not for them. I am not being elitist, in fact quite the opposite. For quite a few people, going to college is not a real option because of the cost. There are lot of smart people out there with a lot of untapped potential who would do really well in school provided they have the necessary opportunities and environment. Of course the for profit schools are a scam and should not be receiving any federal assistance in the form of loans.
Analyze_This Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > higgmond Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > marcus phoenix Wrote: > > > -------------------------------------------------- > > > ----- > > > The problem of plumbers, electricians and > > > mechanics earning too much can be solved by > > > allowing more immigrants with these skills to > > > flood the market. It dosen’t make any sense > for > > > these low skilled professions to pay as much > as > > > they do so now. Its a monopoly which needs to > > be > > > busted (and thankfully slowly is, thanks to > > > migrants from accross the border). > > > > > > Good plumbers, electricians, and mechanics have > > valuable skills that most people on this board, > > myself included, could never dream of having. > > There would be a lot more tradesmen if would-be > > plumbers weren’t pressured into going to > college > > to get a BA in some subject they have no > interest > > in. I will agree with you though that trade > > unions are monopolies which need to be busted. > > > I know someone who is a union plumber and he makes > about 80k. He gets called in on “emergency work” > - getting 24 hours notice - and then makes 80 > bucks an hour. Yeah and then comes in and does unclogs your toilet with an auger in 5 mins which you could have done yourself.
marcus phoenix Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Analyze_This Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > higgmond Wrote: > > > -------------------------------------------------- > > > ----- > > > marcus phoenix Wrote: > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > ----- > > > > The problem of plumbers, electricians and > > > > mechanics earning too much can be solved by > > > > allowing more immigrants with these skills > to > > > > flood the market. It dosen’t make any sense > > for > > > > these low skilled professions to pay as > much > > as > > > > they do so now. Its a monopoly which needs > to > > > be > > > > busted (and thankfully slowly is, thanks to > > > > migrants from accross the border). > > > > > > > > > Good plumbers, electricians, and mechanics > have > > > valuable skills that most people on this > board, > > > myself included, could never dream of having. > > > > There would be a lot more tradesmen if > would-be > > > plumbers weren’t pressured into going to > > college > > > to get a BA in some subject they have no > > interest > > > in. I will agree with you though that trade > > > unions are monopolies which need to be > busted. > > > > > > I know someone who is a union plumber and he > makes > > about 80k. He gets called in on “emergency > work” > > - getting 24 hours notice - and then makes 80 > > bucks an hour. > > Yeah and then comes in and does unclogs your > toilet with an auger in 5 mins which you could > have done yourself. You’re really trivalizing the skills that these blue collar workers have. I agree with higgmond that most people on this board would be up a creek if it weren’t for these “low skilled” people.
^ well the plumber works for the union… that already tells it all doesn’t it? I say we break the unions, let markets move on their own, or we’re just pricing ourselves out of competitiveness
BValGuy Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > marcus phoenix Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > Analyze_This Wrote: > > > -------------------------------------------------- > > > ----- > > > higgmond Wrote: > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > ----- > > > > marcus phoenix Wrote: > > > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > ----- > > > > > The problem of plumbers, electricians and > > > > > mechanics earning too much can be solved > by > > > > > allowing more immigrants with these > skills > > to > > > > > flood the market. It dosen’t make any > sense > > > for > > > > > these low skilled professions to pay as > > much > > > as > > > > > they do so now. Its a monopoly which > needs > > to > > > > be > > > > > busted (and thankfully slowly is, thanks > to > > > > > migrants from accross the border). > > > > > > > > > > > > Good plumbers, electricians, and mechanics > > have > > > > valuable skills that most people on this > > board, > > > > myself included, could never dream of > having. > > > > > > There would be a lot more tradesmen if > > would-be > > > > plumbers weren’t pressured into going to > > > college > > > > to get a BA in some subject they have no > > > interest > > > > in. I will agree with you though that > trade > > > > unions are monopolies which need to be > > busted. > > > > > > > > > I know someone who is a union plumber and he > > makes > > > about 80k. He gets called in on “emergency > > work” > > > - getting 24 hours notice - and then makes 80 > > > bucks an hour. > > > > Yeah and then comes in and does unclogs your > > toilet with an auger in 5 mins which you could > > have done yourself. > > > You’re really trivalizing the skills that these > blue collar workers have. I agree with higgmond > that most people on this board would be up a creek > if it weren’t for these “low skilled” people. I am not trivializing them, just saying that they charge too much for some of the work they do. Lack of competition has a role to play and the fact that we have become too lazy to fix some of the simpler things ourselves, which we might have done in the past. Anyways, we have gone off topic here, my bad.