louisvillegrad wrote The main problem living in India is the enormous disparity between the affluent middle class and rich and the poor people. It is heartbreaking to little watch kids begging and scrounging to make their ends meet. I do not understand how the middle class and affluent Indians living in India can be so selfish and accept the poverty that some people are living in around them. Watcnhing so many kids in such destitute conditions is probably the biggest reason why one would not want to live there. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Dude you sound like an Indian politician. The affluent or the middleclass can do very little about the poverty situation in India. If anyone is to be blamed for poverty it is the Government which provides mediocre primary education and does nothing to keep kids in school. The affluent can only pay taxes and do some charity, if the govt squanders the tax payers money in wasteful schemes nothing can be done. The middle class is also not significant when it comes to elections, so the influence is very limited.
Interesting thread. Batterinram, you might enjoy the recent book by Zac O’Yeah should it ever be translated: Editorial review: “We are some years into the future in Gautampuri, formerly known as Gothenburg, a city of nearly 20 million inhabitants in the northern part of the South Asian Union. Constable Herman Stern, transferred from a job as police detective, is operating in the difficult run-down old town of Gautampuri, an area inhabited by a socially problematic underclass mainly composed of ethnic Swedes. Stern is a solitary man, his health is failing and he has an unpleasant tendency to resort to violence as a precaution. At the same time he is drawn to the opposite ideals and he is reflecting very strongly about taking up a philosophy of Gandhi-inspired nonviolence, Buddhism and vegetarian eating habits. One day he makes a terrible discovery at his favourite restaurant, The Tandoori Moose, where he has the misfortune of accidentally tripping over the tandoori grilled corpses of four men. This shocking tandoori massacre could lead to explosive tensions in a city with predominant ethnic divisions, where the problems - despite all difficulties - have been kept in check. The Tandoori Moose is one of the more original detective novels and is a dark but funny book about how things could be if things were different. And perhaps will become so.”
Dsylexic Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > eros79 Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > No, I think the root causes are more general in > > nature … A gargantuan population leads to a > > “Survival of the fittest” race where everyone > out > > there want to cut throats … There is a big > pool > > of both skilled and unskilled labour who are > > always looking out for more and more … > leading > > to high degrees of bribery, corruption and > other > > such malpractices. an incompetent government > full > > of red tapism only adds fuel to fire. > > Nonsense - the population levels are not the cause > of bribery,corruption etc. > It is the overbearing presence of the govt in > every aspect of people’s lives that is a direct > cause. Big govt is a recipe for corruption. Agreed that population is not the direct cause … but that is one of the big factors which causes scarcity of resources in all walks of life. This is where govt needs to manage very shrewdly and without being partisan to any one section of the community. Their gross mis management is responsible for the utter chaos of the system. While Private players are stepping in , its very very gradual … This I think is the price you pay for democracy.
Then would you suggest adopting China’s one child rule in India? Would India be better off giving up democracy and being under the control of their military to “clean up” their country?
no sir, the malthusian population myths have been debunked for quite a few years now. india is thanking its stars for having a large young population (the so called demographic dividend) . no chance of a social security style debacle for a long time. btw, the japanese, will have no more working people in its society in around 50 years time if they continue to discourage immigration . http://www.albertmohler.com/blog_read.php?id=1145. it is the rationing of resources (lack of property rights, populist subsidies etc by the govt among other statist tendencies that causes black marketeering,rent seeking and consequently scarcity and corruption
louisvillegrad Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Then would you suggest adopting China’s one child > rule in India? Would India be better off giving up > democracy and being under the control of their > military to “clean up” their country? 
you got me wrong … i was not referring to democracy as a cause for population … because of democracy anything to do with privatisation and disinvestment goes through lots of deliberation, debates and oppositions … so it takes a lot of time for things to get going … which is not always a bad thing btw …
First of all, let’s not bring China into this. At first they might look like the same animal, but they’re not. Their government, economic and culture ways are worlds apart. Let’s leave it at that. Second, if you’re using the American definition of middle class, then the middle class in India are pretty much non-existant. You are either really rich or really poor there. Very rarely do you find anything in between. Just wanted to point this out. For the original poster, I don’t think India is a good route to getting your foot in the door. Even though living expense there is lower, the pay is still a bit too little. An increase in 5-10k could go a long ways though considering that’s how much you would make in a similar position in America after tax. Don’t know if you’ve ever been to India or any other places similar to it, but it’s a tough place to be. Think of India as a jungle like NY, but in a much rawer form so it’s definitely not for the faint hearted. You know that saying “if you can make it in New York, you can make it everywhere”? Believe me, NY’s got nothing on India or any of the 3rd world countries.
Ihave heard that the working conditions in china are way more brutal than in india. Suicides are frequent amomg office goers in china.
TraderJames Wrote: the middle class in India are pretty much non-existant. You are either really rich or really poor there. Very rarely do you find anything in between. Just wanted to point this out. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I am from India so yeah I have been to India. Your statement about the middle class in India is completely wrong. There are more than 200 million in India who are classified as middle class and their income varies between 7000 US$ to 250000$ on a PPP basis. You cannot classify these people as either very rich or very poor. Also you pointed out that pay is poor in India of course it is poor by western standards, but you can get by with 25k in India. All I am interested in was would a US/UK citizen who is desperate to get an entry level position come to India cover US/UK stocks here for a while and then go back to do better things in their home country. The price they have to pay is of course no savings for a couple of years and the discomfort of staying in India for a couple of years.
There are so many impoverished in India, there is not actually all that much the middle class can do to alleviate it, other than to become impoverished themselves so that the bottom billion can have an (essentially insignificant) bit more. Sometimes sharing the wealth, essentially means shared poverty. One of the best things that the Indian middle class can do is to try to use whatever influence they have demand greater government transparency and accountability and efficiency. There is some movement on this front. There is some philanthropy too, but the challenge is overwhelming. Finally, the attempt to construct a better functioning economy with businesses that can expand opportunity to the poor bit by bit is a long term project, but one that has some hope of working. So, when one of the posters said “I don’t know how they can live with all that poverty,” the answer may be “They don’t have all that much choice.” Sure, they could try to emigrate, but that’s just running away from poverty, not necessarily dealing with it. Malthusianism appears to be discredited, but this may simply be a result of the massive increase in productivity that was unleashed by the industrial revolution. It did seem to describe agricultural societies reasonably well, and as productivity improvements become harder and harder to find, we may have the return of malthusianism around the world.
Bchadwick wrote: So, when one of the posters said “I don’t know how they can live with all that poverty,” the answer may be “They don’t have all that much choice.” Sure, they could try to emigrate, but that’s just running away from poverty, not necessarily dealing with it. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I must point out that most of the people who emigrate to US and other Western countries are pretty well off. When I interact with Americans, some of them seem to think that if the Indians in the US had not emigrated they would be living in thatched huts in India. This is simply not true their lives in India would have been fairly comfortable (middle class Indians can afford to have cooks and employ people to clean their houses), these guys would have never experienced poverty and were not likely to do so in their life time. The ones trying to escape poverty go to the middle east to take up blue collar jobs and are brutally exploited.
I agree with you ram. I was talking about middle class people emigrating so that they didn’t have to deal with lots of poor people, not poor people emigrating to escape poverty (which also happens, I assume, as you describe). When I visited India briefly on work assignments about 6 years ago, I was struck by how even the wealthy have to put up with inconveniences like water being turned off and fairly regular power outages. When I lived in Brazil, if you were wealthy, you could essentially live like the wealthy in developed regions, and hole yourself up in a place and almost forget about the massive poverty elsewhere. In India it seemed there was no way to escape being confronted by the reality poverty on a daily basis. I’m not making any judgement here about which is better or worse, but I thought it was very interesting.
bchadwick, Yeah I hear you. Things have changed quite a bit now, the wealthy can live in apartments with 24 hrs water supply and power back up. They still have to deal with infrastructure problems (poor roads etc) though.
batterinram Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > I am from India so yeah I have been to India. Your > statement about the middle class in India is > completely wrong. There are more than 200 million > in India who are classified as middle class and > their income varies between 7000 US$ to 250000$ on > a PPP basis. You cannot classify these people as > either very rich or very poor. > > Also you pointed out that pay is poor in India of > course it is poor by western standards, but you > can get by with 25k in India. All I am interested > in was would a US/UK citizen who is desperate to > get an entry level position come to India cover > US/UK stocks here for a while and then go back to > do better things in their home country. The price > they have to pay is of course no savings for a > couple of years and the discomfort of staying in > India for a couple of years. batterinram, my apologies for the outdated statement. I have immigrated from the region about 10 years ago and so I was not aware of the growing middle class. But I still question their overall economic and political influence. Are they at least substantial now? I pointed out that the pay is poor by western standards because that is what I go for. You asked: “Would a US/UK citizen…” so I was going by US/UK standard and my opinion is no, it’s not worth it for the average Joe from US/UK. It actually depends on how desperate you are and what your background is. In your case, since you’re from India, I’d say go for it if you can get a sure thing to get your foot in the door. However I’d try my best to make sure that the position you take will almost guarantee you a spot later on in the US or UK.
Dsylexic Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > In 1900, India’s share of world GDP was around > 25%. The next 90 years were straight downhill > ,however. For the period when the Brits ruled > India,Montagu Norman deserves a lot of credit for > bankrupting the country. Then the local socialists > took over and continued down the well trodden path > to serfdom. The country is still too > leftist/statist in its policies and level of > intellectual debate. This is not correct. India’s share of world GDP was probably 25% in the the 16/17th centuries at the peak of the Mughal period. By 1900 it would have come down to a few percentage points.
TraderJames Wrote: batterinram, my apologies for the outdated statement. I have immigrated from the region about 10 years ago and so I was not aware of the growing middle class. But I still question their overall economic and political influence. Are they at least substantial now? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In terms of numbers the middle class is substantial but they do not have much of political influence. The percentage of middle class citizens who vote are less for a good reason, they often have to chose between criminals who stand in the elections. Even when the middle class votes they do not vote together, this again limits their influence.
Batterinram, I agree with you. I wanted to learn and focus on emerging markets, so I moved to an emerging region. If I get an opportunity to work in India, I will take it. Do you know any recruiters for Indian opportunities? Send me an e-mail at tom18606@yahoo.com
tom18606 wrote Batterinram, I agree with you. I wanted to learn and focus on emerging markets, so I moved to an emerging region. If I get an opportunity to work in India, I will take it. Do you know any recruiters for Indian opportunities? Send me an e-mail at tom18606@yahoo.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- will send an email to you by tomorrow morning (Indian Standard Time)
batterinram Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > tom18606 wrote > Batterinram, I agree with you. I wanted to learn > and focus on emerging markets, so I moved to an > emerging region. If I get an opportunity to work > in India, I will take it. > > Do you know any recruiters for Indian > opportunities? Send me an e-mail at > tom18606@yahoo.com > -------------------------------------------------- > -------------------------------------------------- > ------------ > > will send an email to you by tomorrow morning > (Indian Standard Time) Please send me the same e-mail. I am interested too. Thanks.
agentzero, glad to hear that. I call tell you from my experience that working in emerging markets is fun and challenging. You will enjoy it. CFA program shows structured approaches in the investment management field. Most of the time, everything is unstructured in emerging markets. It’s a challenge to apply structured approaches in unstructured markets.