How to ask for a raise

Water Cooler
#1

I hope this doesn’t cause FT to have a heart attack.

So about six months ago, I left my old job (which I loved) for greener pastures. I enjoyed the old job, but I felt like I wasn’t going anywhere. The old boss never really bought into the investment advisory thing, and after three years, a lot of the clients still didn’t even know that I existed. I understand the old man not giving me the keys to the firm on the day that I start, but after three years, the clients should at least have a vague awareness that he has an assistant, and that I can at least take a message for him.

So I left for a place where I thought I had a future to become a partner. Granted, I took a 12% pay cut, but I thought it was worth it for all the extra benefits.

Nonetheless, I went to place where many things were promised and vastly underdelivered.

  1. I was told that we left at noon on Fridays (during the offseason). In reality,we have only left early once, and that was at 4:00.
  2. I was told that the hours were very flexible. In reality, he likes to lord over the fact that I took an afternoon off when I was sick. (“I paid you for 40 hours, even though you weren’t here for 40 hours. I expect you to make that up.” Well, what about the 65 per week that I worked during tax season?) And we’re also expected to work 50 hours a week - even during the holiday season.
  3. I was told that holiday time was generous. In reality, he is giving us Friday afternoon off for Christmas, and no time for New Year’s.
  4. I was told that I would be doing a lot of complex financial statement compilation, so bankers could rely on it. In reality, all I have done is data entry into Quickbooks.
  5. I was told that I would be handling all the investment work, and would be paid on my production. In reality, that means that I fill out applications while he gets all the face time. And I haven’t been paid anything.
  6. I was told that we would get an extra paycheck for a Christmas bonus. I got about 10% of that.
  7. I was told that we would get bonuses after both tax seasons (spring and fall). Never happened.
  8. I was told that I would be paid a portion of revenues for clients I brought to the firm. Never happened.
  9. We are expected to work 50 hours a week, even during the offseason. In other words, we’re expected to work 50 hours a week for six months out of the year, and 65 hours a week the other six months. That’s right–3,000 hours per year.

That being said, I still don’t hate this job. But I felt like I was underpaid at the last job, and I feel like I’m way underpaid now. And I think he’s about to get on my case for not putting in 50 hours last week (right before Christmas).

I want to (politely) tell him: My salary really doesn’t pay for 50 hours a week during the offseason. I thought I was about 15% underpaid at my old job, and now I feel like I’m about 33% underpaid–for a 40 hour work week. If you want me to work 50 hours a week, offer no holiday time, and offer no benefits, you need to be paying me about 75% more than what I’m making.

Moreover, this is a small firm. Big firms offer big firm bullshit with big salaries. Small firms offer a (relatively) bullshit-free environment, with good work-life balance, because they don’t pay as good as big firms. Your firm pays small-firm salary, but has the big-firm bullshit. We need to figure out how to reconcile the two.

For the record, I was making $75k at the old job. I started here for $66k. Conversations with partners in big firms around town indicate that I’m worth $90k (for a 40 hour week during the offseason) plus benefits. Payscale, Indeed, and Robert Half’s salary guide all agree. And if he expects 50 hours a week during the offseason, the price needs to be in the $105-115k range.

Any idea on how to do get him to agree with me? I think it’s difficunt to ask for a 50% pay raise in one year.

#2

I can’t really add much as I’ve never worked for a small firm so don’t know how it works but I would 100% be looking for another job if I was in your shoes.

That’s quite a list of unfulfilled promises and the guy sounds like a total berk.

#3

Get out asap Greenamn.

sounds like a bad situation and this guy is not interested in mkaing it better if in fact all these promises have been broken.

#4

Fool me once shame on you. Fool me twice…you can’t get fooled again. Is there something about you that screams “please take advantage of me”?

#5

Time to look for another job I think.

#6

Greenman you enjoy taking in the crapper buddy?

#7

All those are good reasons, and 50% raise is NOT too much if you make $66k. It is a $33k raise and probably means little to the firm’s bottom line. In reality, he will probably not give you the full amount that you ask, so think about your starting request.

However, you should focus on all the positive things that you have contributed (for instance, “I reorganized the accounts for these clients, resulting in this much incremental revenue. Furthermore, I have these plans that I believe will provide a superior service to the customers”), and not things that were promised but not delivered, since you don’t want bossu to become defensive.

#8

Start looking for a new job asap. You’re making 66K which is not even close to your value.

Are you on a Partner track?

#9

I’d look for another job, too far gone. I would have been at his throat after he broke the first promise. You can’t come at him with a demand after being okay with being treated poorly for so long (being okay meaning, not saying anything)

#10

Honestly, I feel like that type of discrepancy should be illegal and entitle you to a settlement that’s really F’d up to do that to someone and is false advertising. As far as I know unless it’s on paper there’s nothing you can do though. Given the situation, I would handle it by just laying low and not saying anything, showing up on time and not altering your routine. Just work hard, maybe work on your time management and try to avoid being pulled in for last minute Saturday work. Might be worth it to delete this thread and clear your browser history. In 3 to 5 months burn the place down and walk out with your red stapler and a random $1M check you found under your Lumbergh’s door.

I don’t know what to tell you. If you’re performing well, then maybe try to bring these points up at a performance meeting if they have those.

#11

Yes. Kinda. Again, that’s what he says.

But then again, he’s talking about making another girl here partner. (She has less experience, less education, lesser credentials, and basically, she’s not very good at her job. Nonetheles…) But she is still doing bookkeeping and reconciling bank accounts.

When approached about the subject, he says, “Well, even if I make you partner, I’m still making all the decisions about the firm. I’ll still meet with all the clients. I’ll still be the face of the firm.”

I ask, “But what if you retire? You’ll retire sooner or later.”

He says, “I’ll never retire. Not until I die or the doctor orders me to retire.”

In other words, even if I make “partner”, partner sounds like a glorified employee.

#12

Its not often I would recommend this but…

[video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6pJC0FLA3Sk]

#13

From what I can tell though, small firms tend to be more flexible with compensation. Furthermore, a lot of small firm owners tend to use themselves as a metric for their employees. For instance, if you are the boss’s right hand guy, he might think to himself, “well I am worth $X, so Greenman should be worth $Y”. So perhaps your negotiation should revolve around firm profit and how much you should be entitled to based on your contribution.

I would also prepare a counterpoint to each of his anticipated objections. For example, you say, other firms pay $90k. Boss might say, ok that example is from a more diversified firm. You then say, so what - our revenue per employee is higher. And then, anticipate what he might say next and so forth. If he has no reason to say no, he will have to give you a raise or look like a douche.

#14

This is the problem working at a small firm (though your firm itself is big, I assume your boss acts as the owner and pays you out of his own pocket?). If he does pay you out of his pocket, you’re screwed. He won’t give you a raise until you bring in clients on your own. The benefit of working in this structure should be you get to work less hours and have a relatively laid back environment. Sounds like that’s not the case.

Start looking at every RIA in town. Pull their Form ADVs and read about their business. If they have over $200mm in AUM, offer oral to get in the door. If they have over $2B…you’re likely looking at a more corporate scenario, but that could still be okay.

#15

Greenie, it’s not worth it man. Find a new job. Your boss already showed his hand that he thinks he is more important than the company’s success. You brought up a valid point of him retiring and his answer indicates he is a control freak.

Have you thought about going back to your old employer?

#16

Yes, what Sweep said is what sucks about working for a small firm like that. It sounds like your boss has basically lost your trust, which may be tough to recover. I mean, it sounds like he lied to you repeatedly. You probably need to leave, but still smart to see about a raise.

Do you have an idea on the economics of the firm? Like, if your boss is ripping a mil out a year he may be more inclined to not deal with the headache (dependent on personality).

#17

this conversation is giving me painful flashbacks to my old situation. small firms suck. they lure you in with grand promises – you’re getting in on the ground floor; in a few years you’ll be running this place; when i retire, there’s no on ahead of you. it’s all bullshit. every small firm owner tries to pull the same miracle – keep all the profits and grow the business. the only way to do that is to find some schmuck to do all the heavy lifting in the hopes that he will get a seat at the dinner table when the profits really start rolling in. i can tell you IT AIN’T GONNA HAPPEN in any measure that’s anywhere near the amount of work you put in. you will get the table scraps.

I’m telling you now greenie – start making plans to go out on your own. the people you’re working for aren’t special and you can do everything they can do. you just have to take the risk upfront. if you can rope one client on the side who believes in you, that should be enough. start preparing now before you’re too old for that type of risk.

#18

The raise will help for a little while but ultimately you will still be unhappy (based on your post) because you are still not on partner track. The opportunity to become a partner (where you get equity and a stake in the business rather than just a paycheck) was the main reason for you to take a pay cut and leave your old firm. If you aren’t going to be a partner then you should look for another job in my opinion. Maybe you get a great offer and then present that to your boss and say make me a partner or I am gone. Or as Turd said, start your own business and do it yourself.

#19

+1 but not the old employer. Old employer sounded like a douche as well. Hope things work out. Are you willing to relocate?

#20

Greenman - I thought you were allowed to keep all the investment clients for yourself? (If I remember correctly from the last thread regarding this opportunity). Jesus, you need to get outta there and either set up your own shop in town or relocate to a bigger area. I’m sure your wife can find a new job too.