^ Fair enough. Please don’t take my comments personally. I just hear a lot of drivel like “If India was a democracy, they’d let Kashmir have a plebiscite”. *eyeroll*.
Wow that took a long time to read.
Moral of the story:
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Never mess with Black Swan… he will go all Sauron on you
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Never mention India in a thread… them people be too sensitive and the thread becomes too long
Shout out to Alladin for his comic relief
I have unilaterally decided that every long thread needs to be closed with an HCB.
I introduce to you Ms. Lacey Banghard. (Yes, it’s her real name, and obviously this is 400% NSFW)
I prefer Kate Upton.
eh you fool i didn’t say i had a ‘cousin brother’ there.
Your point about people from jammu not being real kashmiri was too stupid to reply to. White americans are not the only ‘real americans’.
My point had nothing to do with class and religion and i never said that kashmiri’s want to live under such heavy military prescense. I only said that the majority do not favor the seperatists. It’s no coincidence that the most charismatic leader kashmir has seen omar advocates more autonomy but does not back the people who want ‘free kashmir’.
the ‘real kashmiri’s’ not blinded by religious ideology understand that because of its terrain and location industry can never make it’s way there and their best way to make a better living is through tourism which being part of india is only benificial. Ask the poor whether they really care about free kashmir or if they’re just wondering when kapil sibal will remove red tape on education so they can open the schools they’ve planned out. Ask the wealthy merchants who have made fortunes exporting kasmiri willow and rugs and are almost exclusively muslim what they think about the idiots advocating azad kashmir. They want the indian military to go home for sure but they don’t really advocate free kashmir.
The other point you said it’s not a real war and NEVER WAS. It isn’t a war now obviously but to say it never was is just stupid. you also said the main casualties were cattle. While that may be the case in the skirmishes that happen on the border today i gave you the example of the '71 war where 30,000 dead on either side, 1 million east pakistanis seeking refuge in india, 100,000 + women raped , sorties flown by both airforces on each others territorial airspace, india capturing land in west pakistan and giving it back out of goodwill, america sending a carrier into indian waters, russia sending a sub in response all point otherwise.
While india and pakistan most probably will never fight a war again the wars fought have most definately been REAL.
Ok so you’re saying that it WAS a real war but no longer is, and I am saying it just plain isnt. Close enough. We both agree that it’s primarily cattle getting blown up these days (the past 40 years or so). And that was all I ever wanted to prove. Now we agree. Good.
30k dead is not an impressive number in a country like India. A real war between India and Pakistan would be millions. In the US, we fought a real war that we call the Civil War. We had 30k dead in a day at Antietam and that was with about 1/15th the population of India + Pakistan and with 19th century ordinance. If India and Pakistan actually went at it, the bloodbath would be unprecedented.
Real Kashmiris not blinded by religious idolatry? Hehe, don’t know very many of those. What I do know is that Kashmir makes Saudi Arabia look like San Francisco, Those people are real believers.
My favorite quote from a Kashmiri friend of mine who is educated and travels abroad frequently, “The mumbai terrorist attacks were perpetrated by Indians. None of the attackers were Muslims either.”. My second favorite quote, “There were no Jews in the world trade center towers.”
I like Jammu. I like Kashmir. But both places are totally different. They are kind of like Israel and Palestine. Part of the same area but not exactly on the same page. One is ruled by the other, but the other isn’t exactly happy about it. I do not think people from Jammu are Kashmiri. For one they speak Dogri and call themselves dogras. They tend to worship Hinduism or Sikhism. Whereas people in Kashmir speak Kashmiri and 95 percent of them follow Islam. Oh and Indians aren’t allowed to buy land in Kashmir, just to give you an idea of how tolerant they are of having more Hindus move into the Kashmir valley.
not a real war.lol… are you thick?
just for you
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1971_Bangladesh_atrocities
the genocide rapes etc all really kicked off after it became apparent that a new nation was going to be carved open sooner or later
your kashmiri friend is an idiot then.
indians can buy land in srinagar which is most def in the valley.
language got nothing to do with it.it’s nothing like israel and palestine because there is no restriction on the movement of people
Bangladesh again, old boy. Bangladesh.
are you aware that bangaladesh was part of pakistan?
Yes, but not in our lifetime. We are talking about India / Pakistan TODAY.
sure…it isn’t a war now…no one’s claiming that.
but you said it never WAS.
CT, your point about Kashmir being the proxy state where two nations can “safely” fight a low-intensity war is new to me. I have to wonder if it is that sane and civilized. Somehow I doubt it. Pakistan has tried enough times to take it all by force, and failed. The real wonder is why India never finishes the job and takes back all of Kashmir. Looking at Israel and Golan Heights, or China and Tibet, or even US and Hawaii, occupation can work as long as you’re clear that that’s what you’re doing.
If I was the supreme ruler of India, I’d relocate mainland Indians into Kashmir till the 95% Muslim majority is reduced to a tiny minority - that will ensure that Kashmir looks like the rest of India. Then keep pushing Pakistan (maybe encircle them using Afghanistan).
There is a small danger than Pakistanis would say “screw it” and use the nuclear option, literally. But hey, if I was the supreme leader I’d be safe in my bunker so those are odds I can live with.
^ That is literally the view of the Indian Right. However, the left/liberals has a habit of sympathising with Islamists, why, I really cannot fathom. There is even a provision in the Constitution which prevents Indians from moving to Kashmir (I kid you not).
The other reason is that the US and China really don’t want India to do it. Trying to take Kashmir by force would likely put India directly in conflict with them. Not that that’s any excuse either. If India took this seriously, they would ignore US and Chinese interests and take it by force.
Kashmir is China’s bridge to the Indian Ocean region, and controls most of the waters that flow into Pak. Controlling it would give India enormous leverage. Hence it pisses me off so much when people whine about giving up Kashmir to the innocent peace loving people there.
Yep. Kashmiris wont allow any Hindus (or anyone else) into Kashmir to purchase immovible property (trust me, I’ve tried). Indeed, unless you are Kashmiri, you can’t buy land in Kashmir. All those nice Hindus that Ilsduur is related to are not allowed to buy land in Kashmir cause they are not Kashmiri, even if Ilsdurrr and black swan think they are.
Why doesn’t India clean up and take it all back? Well, Palintir makes as good an argument as any about that. I’ll add that a good chunk of the ruling Indian political party, the congress party, is Muslim. Don’t think they’d be in favor of an Indian (Hindu) government led pogram against Muslims. It’s probably a good thing that India seems unwilling to commit state sponsored genocide.
More importantly though, this is why it isn’t a real war. Cause it isnt. India has no intention of actually fighting a real war. Pakistan knows that if it starts one, then it would lose. So we have a joke of a standoff. This suits the military ruling class very well. These army guys live some of the most privledged lifestyles in India. They get drivers, servants, imported booze, golfcourses, whatever you name it. Pretty soon, they’ll get aircraft carriers and jets to add to their egos. In fact, the town where we whacked Bin Laden (Abbottbad) was one such military brass resort/spa town in Pakistan and India has plenty of its own equivalents (my favorite of which is Gulmarg).
The army brass on both sides get to live in fancy army barracks and have a little fun shooting off some ordinance now and then and laughing their asses off as the enemies cows explode. There was a recent single combat related fatality in that area and it was a big deal, cause nobody could remember that last time they’d had one - that’s not supposed to happen cause this IS NOT a real war. But what it does accomplish is that the army brass gets to justify all their expensive toys because of the enemy “threat.” What a joke. There is no threat.
O,h but what about all the atrocities in Bangladesh? Yep, we get the occasional neighborhood turf war which can include: mass killings, rapings, and thousands of casualties. But we get that sort of shit in India (take Mumbai in the 90s) and especially the peripheral nations of India all of the time - every day in fact. That’s nothing new. That’s not a real war between two states. That’s just a good old fashioned ethnic turf war between a bunch of rival communities. Hindus vs Muslims. Christians vs. Hindus. Muslims vs slighty different kind of Muslims It happens every damn day in India and even more so in the lousy countries that border India.
1Recho, what you are looking for is a real war. No, if this India/Pakistan thing were a real war, it would go down the same way as what happened rather recently in Sri Lanka a few years back.
You guys probably don’t really know much about what happened in Sri Lanka, cause the Sri Lankans (Buddhists) did a very good job of surpressing the news while they perpretrated a full blown genocide against a group of Tamil separatists (Hindus). Now that was a war. The sri lankan government (Buddhists) literally fought every last man, woman, and child of the tamil tigers (Hindu) until they were either dead or swimming back to Chennai. Who would have thought that a bunch of Buddhists would be so good at genocide? In any case, the Sri Lankan governmen (buddhiest)t won that war decisively. You won’t find any Tamils running around in North Easter Sri Lanka any more.
Yep, if India had the resolve to solve that Kashmir thing, the same way the Sri Lankans wanted to solve that Tamil thing, then they could really get busy getting their massacre on. Make Tarantino look like Pixar. But nope, poltiical reasons stand in the way of that. So what you get, is not a real war.
I like how some proper stuff is mixed with absolute bullshit in your posts. takes some real skill.
Yeah, that’s about the best anyone can do when writing about these messes. Fair enough.
the bit about lanka was fine as well as the way you decribed the CURRENT standoff.
the way you compared bangaladesh to mumbai turf wars was laughable. and your continued point that hindu’s cannot be kashmiri even more so
I find all this talk about India about as interesting as flossing my teeth, so I googled it to see if I’m missing something. No…it’s pretty uninteresting. According to the one and only article I could muster my way through, muslims kicked some hindus out of Kashmir in 1989. The Hindus went to some place that probably sounds a lot cooler than it is, Jammu. In 2008 the Indian Prime Minister told the Hindus they could move back to Kashmir by making 6,000 “coveted” government jobs available. Some Hindus came back but instead of reclaiming the plush estates their families had previously occupied, they were crammed into Hindu dorms while their old homes sat vacant and crumbling.
Kind of sounds like Detroit but with less violence.
http://www.theworld.org/2013/01/hindus-moving-back-to-kashmir/
One carrier fleet could destroy both India and Pakistan.