Is this true, CvM?

Water Cooler
#1

I guess Stormy could answer this as well. But I think we would get two different answers…

The current POTUS weighs in on the Martin/Zimmerman case.

http://news.yahoo.com/-obama–trayvon-martin-%E2%80%98could-have-been-me-35-years-ago%E2%80%99–180734663.html

TLDR version - Obama seems to think that if Trayvon Martin had been white, “both the outcome and the aftermath would have been different.” Race-based prejudice still abounds in the good ol’ US of A. He says that all blacks get tailed while shopping in JCPenney, and white women in the elevator grab their purse and whisper prayers that he doesn’t rob and kill them before they get off, etc. He finally urges all Americans to do some “soul-searching” (whatever that means).

CvM - is he right? Growing up, did you (or do you still) have the problem of white folk thinking that you were up to no good, no matter what you were doing?

#2

Perhaps. However, if people are more suspicious of black youth in general, it’s because black youth are more likely to commit crime in the first place. Clearly, there are other complicated issues at work, and these cannot simply be solved by introspectively examining our attitude towards black people.

#3

I don’t buy that. Black youth may be more likely to be caught committing crimes (emphasis on caught, because people are looking more carefully at them, white crime may well be less noticed as well as less convicted), but it’s a big jump from there to saying “that’s why people are more suspicious of black youth in general.”

Control for socio economic status and the statistics may well change. There is still likely to be racial differences, but that doesn’t mean blackness causes crime. It’s that blackness is correlated to other crap that causes crime - like fewer opportunities, fewer abilities to sweet-talk ones way out of police attention, millions of dollars in hollywood films spent projecting the image that people who look like you do really bad s#!t, because it pushes emotional buttons and sells more seats in theaters.

I get that you’re trying to say that the unconditional correlation of blackness and crime seems higher, but whenever you say that, you have to be careful to distance yourself from the any perception that what you are saying is that black is what causes criminal behavior, because if you don’t, you’re inviting people to take the shortcut of saying “well, he’s black, so he’s probably up to no good,” which is what gets Trayvon Marton shot for carrying skittles in a white part of town.

You try to cover yourself by saying “it’s more complicated than that,” but it’s WAY more complicated than that.

#4

Well, I never said that being black is the cause of crimes - only that race is correlated with crime. Knowing this, it is reasonable to predict that George Zimmerman would have been more suspicious of a 16-year-old African American male in a black hoodie than say, a 16-year-old white female. What Zimmerman did was clearly stupid, but in general, public reaction to black males is due to real underlying issues, not just prejudice.

Edit: Controlling for factors other than race - like poverty - is not really relevant if we are not dealing with causality.

#5

The general “thuggish” look that has become popular across a majority of blacks does not help. This thuggish look exists for all races…but it is probably safe to say it is dominated by the black community. Don’t ask me what i mean by thuggish…you know what I mean.

It’s not just about being black…its the appearance. In the business world, if you show up in a t-shirt and jeans to a client meeting, people will have a certain perception about you (probably will get sent away too). If you dress properly then they will have a different, probably more positive perception of you.

Dressing like you look like you are in a gang will give people a perception that you’re up to no good and unfortunately a lot of people in the black (as well as latino, white, asian, etc…but mostly black) are dressing this way. Bill Cosby has some interesting comments on how he feels about how young black men are dressing these days.

#6

First, I DO buy that.

Look at this entry from Wikipedia. I know that Wikipedia is far from perfect, but if it’s remotely true, then it certainly tells part of the story.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statistics_of_incarcerated_African-American_males

Second, even if what BGAChad says is true, then it differs from the perception that most people have. Whether that perception is justified or not, most whites ARE suspicious of blacks. And it seems like blacks are not interested in changing that perception. They’re more interested in following Reverend Al and Jesse around and claiming discrimination at the drop of a pin.

#7

I think BChad was saying race is correlated with the DISCOVERY of crime. That may or may not be the actual prevelance of crime.

#8

^True. If you put anyone under a microscope, you’re bound to find imperfections.

But does it really matter whether it’s real or perceived?

#9

I’m not denying that the statistics show that the crime rate among black youth is higher than the crime rate among white youth. (Though I’d want to control for a lot more variables before drawing too many conclusions from that raw data count - including the fact that since blacks are profiled more often than whites, they may well be discovered at higher rates, which inflates and biases the data if you are using the data to measure actual criminality vs percieved criminality)

What I’m saying is that people (whites) are likely to mistrust blacks WHETHER OR NOT the crime rate is actually higher or not. I don’t buy the idea that “if we mistrust you, it’s obviously because you are doing something wrong.” Particularly when most people’s knowlege of black vs white crime comes from news programs and hollywood, both of whom have strong incentives to cater to people’s pre-existing predudices.

I don’t think the average person actually knows enough about the real crime rates of white and black youth, particularly poor white and poor black youth to draw any real conclusions about that. All they really know is that they see lots of black faces on TV, whether its the news or hollywood, and the thuggish look is scary, so clearly black thuggish looking people are most likely the criminals.

Meanwhile they add AAA rated CDOs to their retirement portfolios and pay 2% management fees on their 401ks.

#10

Ok that is true. But do you really believe that there is no positive correlation between crime and discovery of crime?

#11

You’ve seen this experiment, right:

http://www.upworthy.com/know-anyone-that-thinks-racial-profiling-is-exaggerated-watch-this-and-tell-me-when-your-jaw-drops-2

The correlation is probably there but it’s also probably way lower than one thinks.

#12

Here’s a fact: A group of young black men are more likely to cause trouble than a group of young white men.

Kansas City has had many problems over the years of black youths literally taking over normally white shopping and entertainment districts. I say problems because when they do there is always crime, normally shootings and beatings, that happen. (White) people don’t stop going to those places because of the perception of danger. They stop going because it is dangerous.

We can debate the why of it, but let’s not be so PC as to deny that it does exist.

#13

Cue stormy…lol

#14

The way I see it, If i’m walking down the street and some thug looking white guy, see fig. 1 below, is walking by, I get scared. If I see the individual in fig. 2, no fear at all. wouldnt even have second thought of a second thought of a second thought about it.

fig 1

http://imnotatoy.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/imnotatoygang.jpg?w=500

fig 2

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-46Bc_p-cxOc/Ta8L4mCo-nI/AAAAAAAAHi8/tCISzUeNCJQ/s400/LudlowSuit.jpg

[thread/]

#15

Yes, so when one group is more likely to be put under the microscope than others, that group ends up having more imperfections spotted. But that doesn’t necessarily mean that they have more imperfections, just that you’ve been counting up theirs more than anyone else’s.

(I’m not trying to argue that the numbers lie - I’m trying to argue that people take the numbers and jump quickly to more generalized conclusions that often aren’t justified).

Yes, because it’s the perception that your life is in danger which allows you to claim the right to shoot someone dead and call it self defense.

If your perception is wrong because you were really just frightened of a black guy in a hoodie, there probably is no difference, as long as you were the one with the gun.

The police at least have to demonstrate probable cause before stopping someone. A vigilante apparently doesn’t; he just has to dislike the way you look. If you look a bit scary, he can kill you, at least if no one else is an eye witness.

#16

Yea, but it may not be “black” but rather “poverty” that is a the characertistic we are looking at. I don’t think anyone is trying to be PC, just analytical.

There is, but I’m not certain how strong it would be. It’s just like the usage rates of Marijuana is supposed to be similiar, but the arrests are something like 10 to 1. Possession arrests are just a microcosm of what we are talking about, but I think it is an interesting and useful example for the point.

#17

Although my professional friends and new friends I make would never imagine it, I used to hang out with some ‘thugs’ and many of my close friends in high school were black. Most weren’t thugs, but that’s why this story is interesting:

One of my friend’s got arrested recently walking from a grocery store to his apartment at like 10 PM. The description of a recent car robber was “Black guy in hoodie.” So he spent a few hours in booking until they found the right guy. My friend is like 6’3 and 280 LBs. The robber was like 5’8 and 180.

#18

I’m all drugged up from surgery so I have a ton of free time to talk about this topic (which I’ve thought alot about, obv)… That being said, I’m drugged up, so it may not make a lot of sense.

The video - Albeit very interesting to see, I would posit that the white and black guys were NOT dressed similarly as the narrator indicated, and that would contribute, a little, to the bias in the results. Plus the people making the video get to pick and choose the interaction, making it suit their needs for the video. Absolutely incredible that the guy literally helped the girl steal the bike though. “Oh, you can steal it? You can help me steal it.” That could be because she’s cute and the guys helping her may be thinking with “Junior.” Was quite the video however.

As said before, certainly the way you look and are dressed would lead one to believe a certain way about a person, moreso than white/black. Now, there is no denying that there is a far greater preponderance of blacks with “the look” than whites. Why? I think a good portion of it goes back to the socioeconomic situation. Now why there are more blacks that reside in Section 8 housing, for example, could lead to a long debate. But facts are facts.

At the end of the day, preconceived stereotypes exist for a reason: there is an element of truth to them.

Americans - arrogant

Canadians - super nice

Middle easterners - own gas stations

Chinese/Asians - really smart

Obviously this are only a couple the stereotypes I’ve heard (yet also have the ability to prove/disprove) from my American, untraveled, unworldly view. But nonetheless, these are the stereotypes, and my (limited) expierience proves they have an element of truth. I grew up within a 90 minutes drive of Canada, live in America, see that like 90% of gas station attendants (in America) are middle eastern (although I feel it’s been dropping recently), and the Asian people I know are very smart, for the most part.

On to blacks, or more specifically, African-Americans, who have a stereotype of being lazy/not working and being unlawful. Why is it a stereotype? Obviously, there is a way higher number of blacks in prisons in the US than any other race, so it’s an easy one. Is that only because they are being “cherry picked” due to the stereotype? Perhaps, but I have a hard time believing that it was always like that. My thought is that, if they are in fact being profiled, then it’s because they, at least used to, break the law significantly more. Good way to remove that stereotype is to stop committing crimes. I obviously didnt grow up from 1900-1950 ish, but the history I remember (think I remember anyway) from high school doesn’t indicate that there was always an incarceration issue with blacks. It seems to have risen after the civil rights movement, in probably the 70s and 80s (“war on drugs”). Again, all I really have is anecdotal evidence from that period, so if I’m wrong, definitely call me out.

Growing up, I never understood why a derogatory term for blacks was “porch monkey.” Only until I got to college and started to live in, or near, a densely black populated area (read: relatively poor), did I understand it. It seems like they are always out on the porch! Now, I have less than no issues with that, and would love to sit there and relax next to them. But I’m always in the middle of something. So this certainly gives rise the lazy stereotype. Again, this might be a selective review, because the neighborhood I lived near was probably over 95% black, but I only remember seeing one white guy that was out on the porch all day. But he was a retiree, no longer of working age, like the others.

Bottom line (I’d say), is if blacks wanted to remove the stereotype, then they should stop making it a self-fulfilling prophecy. Simple solution.

With my usage of “they” as referring to blacks, it makes me feel like I’m racist. I swear I’m not.

#19

perception = prejudice, not realizing that is your issue to resolve not black people’s.

#20

The point of the video is that *everyone* is supposedly stealing the bike. Only the black guy is singled out for stopping and potential arrest. Only the black guy seems to be faced with the likelihood of going to jail for it, while the cute white girl actually gets handed free stuff “stolen” from someone else.

If this is at all representative of how the rest of society works, then the number of black people in jail is a horrifically inaccurate measure of whether blacks are more likely to be criminals or not. Yet people walk around as if the arrest and jailing data justifies their idea that blacks are more criminal, which of course is why the black man gets singled out for interrogation and arrest while the white man gets away with stealing the bike.

The point is that if we think carefully about it, we don’t really know if whites are more criminal than blacks or not, all we really know is that we stop, arrest, convict, and sentence them at a higher rate, and give them harsher sentences than the equivalent crimes for white people.