Browsed some random job listings today for amusement, saw one that said:
Requirements:- PhD from an Ivy League University
Really? I bet someone must think very highly of themself and their Ivy league degree.
No wonder the mass public hates people in finance
Is it Citadel? All their job postings say something like that. Although, “Ivy League University” is not really a good description. That’s like “Sorry, MIT. We only want graduates from schools in a particular sports conference”.
Edit: Sorry, I meant to say D.E. Shaw.
D.E. Shaw…
Isnt’ that the firm that wants you’re RBI stats from little league as well as your JR. High Class Rank?
Not sure, but I know they want your SAT score.
Well, it seems particularly stupid to me for several reasons. Given my understanding of the PhD process and how it differs from say an MBA (and I could be way off here), the results are much more individualistic. This isn’t a process of rote memorization. By the point of being recognized as a PhD, most candidates have differentiated themselves beyond the brand of their school based upon the focus of their studies and the various levels of ingenuity in their thesis and it will have much less to do wtih what particular school you attended. For instance, a hiring manager who was themselves intelligent should be able to briefly glance over their focus and thesis and have a much better understanding of the individual than knowing their brand name would afford. I dunno, maybe I’m wrong, I just always thought for PhD’s the individual product mattered much more than the brand of the school. With the exception of MIT, I always just figured those guys were on a whole different level.
Although there is less variation in PhD program quality compared to lower university programs, the brand of school is definitely correlated with quality. Harvard PhDs are definitely, on average, better than PhDs from some random place. There are obviously exceptions where the random guy is as good as the average Harvard student, but there are exceptions for all levels of school, not just PhDs.
The most competitive PhD program applicants (best scores, best undergrad, best research, best recommendations) end up attending just a handful of PhD programs.
I just know for a fact there are pockets of schools that have stellar PhD programs that are definitely outside the “Ivy Leagues”.
So between this and wanting your SAT score, even if you took them 15 years ago… I would have to say the SAT score request is more retarded
I recently was sent a job posting for a tech startup and they wanted someone with a BS degree “from a top 20 school.”
I thought that was hysterical. How are these schools even ranked and how arrogant for a company that burns cash to post something like that.
Welcome to the world of high finance. My good friend is in a top MBA program interviewing for jobs right now. One employer asked him for his class rank IN MIDDLE SCHOOL (he’s 28 now with a high undergrad GPA, 760+ GMAT, and 1500+ SAT). He refused to look it up and got dinged. Seriously.
I would hate to work for a place that cared seriously about specific things I did in junior high. What a clownshow.
Middle School? That’s F’ed up. I don’t think my middle school even had ranks
I think this ridiculous behavior stems from the interviewers insecurity from working hard at studying for dumb tests and then failing to be as outstanding out in the real world. They desperately cling onto that feeling of superiority, and trying to “relive the old glory”. That’s probably the only type of person that will give a damn about middle school grades from 20 years ago.
I agree. I was invited to interview for a self proclaimed “prestigious hedge fund.” When I looked them up, their track record was pretty mediocre. So I went to the website, which trumpeted on about how they employ “Many Stanford and Harvard MBAs.” I thought ehhh, probably not even worth taking the interview. Nothing wrong with top MBAs, but don’t talk shit if you can’t back it up with actual results. Another red flag was that it is a husband and wife team managing it – yuck.
If someone asked me for my middle school class rank I would get up and walk out of the room.
Husband and wife team is pretty sketchy. Volatile hedge fund will result in volatile marriage - then it’s the “kids” that get in trouble…
My take is that the ad is likely being placed by a recruiter. Recruiters say dumb things like “must be ivy league” etc., because that reduces their due diligence efforts. THen when the recruiter pitches the candidate to the company, they get to say “this guy is Ivy League Ph.D., so can obviously guarantee superior risk-adjusted returns, unlike someone who has a CFA.”
Nah there is a big difference between brand name and no-name PhD. At a top PhD program the students are definitely a cut above everyone else. However, on the other hand, for the most competitive jobs, “Ivy League PhD’s” will be competing against each other and there your individual product is important. But no, there is a substantial difference in perception. Furthermore, a lot of this has more to do with hiring candidates that they can brag about, so even if there is no diff in ability, think about the prestige that “PhD Mathematics, Princeton University” would convey.
It’s also important to consider that the best undergraduate schools don’t always have the best graduate programs. Sometimes, no-name undergraduate universities have top tier graduate programs. Also, many top tier undergraduate universities have graduate programs that are not that great (cough… *Yale*… cough…). So, a filter like “Ivy League” is more useful for undergraduate recruiting than it is for graduate recruiting.
Well, remember that Stanford, Carnegie-Mellon, UC Berkeley, Oxford, Cambridge, U. Chicago, etc. are not Ivy League. Are you really that sure that those Ph.Ds are just too sloppy for financial work?
In addition, the quality difference between the very very top and the level just under is not necessarily all that high, and can be very difficult to measure anyway, particularly if jumping from an academic environment to a workplace one (however, the price premium differential may be).
So I do think that people who demand an Ivy League name are either just trying to puff up their staff credentials (which suggests that they may have an inferiority complex, perhaps even a justified one), or they are just too lazy to figure out who/what they want and are busy covering their butts (who could have known he’d blow up the fund, he’s got a Ph.D. from Harvard?).
I agree that the Ivy League moniker is probably more useful (but still overused) as a filter at the undergraduate level.
Gotcha, it was just my perception, but I don’t have a lot of familiarity with the PhD field.
I think “Ivy League” would include the aforementioned universities. Not literally, yes, but I don’t think anyone would consider Cambridge below Cornell U…
I agree that using the specific term, “Ivy League” is a bit ignorant, for reasons above. If you say something like “top tier PhD” it is still pretentious, but is less ignorant.