sublimity Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > this is an interesting discussion > > anyways, I would say Madoff is worse by far well then why did people give me crap for it this morning.
needhelp Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > sublimity Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > this is an interesting discussion > > > > anyways, I would say Madoff is worse by far > > > well then why did people give me crap for it this > morning. Because some of us aren’t as sick as sublimity!!
this discussion is interesting because I get to think about my old political philosophy courses. Here the distinction is between rights based violations and the optimization of the good. Who did the crime that was more wrong: Fritzl. The rights of his daughter and grandchildren were denied in a way that is many times worse than if he had just taken all of her money (which he did, effectively, since she never had the opportunity to make any to be taken away). Who did the crime that did more damage to society: Madoff. More people were affected and more money disappeared. So who was more wrong: Fritzl. Who did more total damage to society: Madoff.
I love the fundamentalist, religious, zealot type of thinking here that involves accusations and ostracism for expressing an opinion and backed up by a reason.
agreed with bchadwick, we have to specify scale and scope
anyways, i thought your question, needhelp, was an excellent one as i have said before, you are brutally insightful in your comments - and equally so in your questions, in thinking overall
I think if you had a true picture of the impact of what maddoff did this would be an easier question to answer but honestly we don’t have a very good idea. Also the Fritzl story is more personalized so it is easier to comprehend. It’s the whole idea that hearing about one person dying is usually more upsetting than hearing about 100 people dying.
I guess I’d be able to sleep better at night if I was Maddoff.
I can’t believe people are actually choosing Bernie over Josef? Ponzi schemes are common throughout the world(lets not be ignorant for a sec). The only thing that surprised me here was Bernie played with SECs and others for all these years and the amount was huge. As for people who commited sucide, like mo34 said, they chose to do so. Just the other day i saw a lady on tv working as a house cleaner after losing millions with Bernie. Now she didn’t go and commit suicide did she? But i guess she will be disturbed if her son/father comes and rapes her year after year. People rise and fall, whatever reason maybe, your own or others. shit happens in life. Doesnt mean you can start Jerry Springer anywhere and start fvcking your mother/sister? So the question is would you lose millions in a fraud or fvck your mum/daughter/sister? If you have a little respect for yourself, there is no comparison between the most inhumane behavior and material.
sublimity Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > anyways, i thought your question, needhelp, was an > excellent one > > as i have said before, you are brutally insightful > in your comments - and equally so in your > questions, in thinking overall thank you, kind sir.
KJH Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > I think Madoff is worse. Murder, rape & incest, > while obviously no picnic, sound worse than they > are, while stealing precious capital is truly > heinous… think of all the scholarships that > won’t be funded, all the medical research that > won’t happen, all the changed lives, the cascading > effects of the changed lives, etc. As analysts > we should mourn when capital is misallocated and > we should genuinely cry when capital is obscuunded > outright. Murder, rape & incest… part of life. > Animals do it. I am guessing that you’re being sarcastic. I hope so 
This argument is stupid. Apples and oranges.
I think nodes hit the nail on the head with this one, which would you rather not have inflicted upon you…??
You can’t compare them like that because the quantity of people effected was completely different in the two cases. The real question is…was the suffering of the people effected by Madoff collectively larger or smaller than the suffering imposed on the few effected by Josef? This brings up the question…what types of suffering are worth what? You have to add up the suffering cost for both sides and figure out which is more. I don’t think it’s an easy answer, but my inclination would be to lean towards Madoff.
scandoworker Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > I think nodes hit the nail on the head with this > one, which would you rather not have inflicted > upon you…?? This is a limited view, just like all views actually. For example, Wwhat if you are a masochist who enjoys being dominated?
Nodes, the reverse of you argument is want’s more important drinking coffee or saving a child’s life. If enough people gave up drinking coffee and put that money towards helping a child (sick, child, poor child, whatever) would that not be right. This is a bad argument because it’s the biggest problem with society today. I don’t think there is any way to truly justify spending money (except to make more money) on almost anything when that money could be used to save a child’s life, yet we all do it every day.
This is only an interesting discussion because everyone interprets the question differently. Like thePinkman said, it’s apples and oranges. If you interpret the OP’s question as, which crime is more heinous and unthinkable, there’s no doubt that everyone would answer Fritzl. If you interpret it as which crime has a bigger impact on society as a whole, everyone will answer Madoff. End of discussion.
mo34 Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > KJH Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > I think Madoff is worse. Murder, rape & > incest, > > while obviously no picnic, sound worse than > they > > are, while stealing precious capital is truly > > heinous… think of all the scholarships that > > won’t be funded, all the medical research that > > won’t happen, all the changed lives, the > cascading > > effects of the changed lives, etc. As > analysts > > we should mourn when capital is misallocated > and > > we should genuinely cry when capital is > obscuunded > > outright. Murder, rape & incest… part of > life. > > Animals do it. > > You can’t be serious. Holding his own daughter > against her will for 24 years in the basement and > raping her over 3000 times, burning one of his > sons in his backyard because he got sick. If this > is not the devil himself, then I don’t know what > else he could have done to get the title. > > Madoff’s scam is fairly common, the SEC busted > over 18 ponzi schemes since the Madoff case. It’s > just the sheer size of it that is crazy. Where the > money came from did not matter to him. Actually > the guy is to be respected for protecting his wife > and kids and sacrificing himself for them ( by > pleading guilty without disclosing any details). they’re both probably sociopaths that need to be locked up for life.
chrismaths Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Don’t get me going on some bullshit utilitarian > hedonic calculus nonsense. > > > In addition to the obvious culpability of Madoff > and his associates, the victims were culpable > under the caveat emptor principle, and if they > paid someone else to do their dd then the supposed > pro is culpable and the victim is culpable for > hiring the supposed pro. +10 No matter how large the impact of the ponzi scheme may have been, you can not compare it against a crime like Fritzl. I am appalled that after pleading guilty to all the charges he still will be represented by a lawyer and god knows how much tax payer dollars will be spent on the trial.
oldmonk Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > chrismaths Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > Don’t get me going on some bullshit utilitarian > > hedonic calculus nonsense. > > > > > > In addition to the obvious culpability of > Madoff > > and his associates, the victims were culpable > > under the caveat emptor principle, and if they > > paid someone else to do their dd then the > supposed > > pro is culpable and the victim is culpable for > > hiring the supposed pro. > > > +10 > > > No matter how large the impact of the ponzi scheme > may have been, you can not compare it against a > crime like Fritzl. I am appalled that after > pleading guilty to all the charges he still will > be represented by a lawyer and god knows how much > tax payer dollars will be spent on the trial. yeah, like do we really need civil rights or a judicary?