ohai Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Assuming uniform talent pools, I would think that > medical degrees are more valuable, then law > school, then business school. The time and cost > difference between these programs should reflect > the rewards that employers are willing to pay you > when you graduate. > > Also, if you’re comparing Harvard to Harvard, I > know for a fact that on average, HLS people make > more money than HBS people. On *average*? I think you might be excluding the long tail of HBS people that make multi-millions in finance. Maybe median salary for freshly minted HLS students is higher than HBS – I wouldn’t disagree with this – but I’d be interested to see how this tracked over a long term career. Keep in mind there are a lot of people from HBS that end up going into general management, marketing, and even non-profit so these folks probably have lower average income than people of similar experience coming from HLS. However, if you add in all the private equity and hedge fund personnel, you’d probably get a different picture.
There is no doubt that on average, medical degrees will earn you more in the long run. Basically the low end of medicine will pay 150k and the high end will pay 700k to 1m (if you’re in dermatology). There is also an opportunity cost you’re giving up. An MBA takes 2 years. Medicine takes 4 years, then 3 to 5 years of residency, then an additional 2-4 years of specialization. You need to factor in all those years of lost wages in calculating an average income. So I still think medicine pays more on average, but it isn’t by as much as one would think. I disagree that law pays higher than business though. I would think they’re about even, with business possibly edging out law.
Ok. I by “average” I was referring to the often-quoted median compensation, so I will concede your point there. But on this note, how do you know that the long tail of HLS graduates is not similarly skewed? Law firm partners can make millions a year, and law school graduates can do things other than law, including financial services. Edit: Just from an intuitive level, it does not make sense to me that business school would give you higher expected earnings (once you graduate) compared to law school. Law school costs more money and time. So, if business school gives you higher expected income, then that’s a clear life arbitrage.
However, what’s the income advantage of a HMS graduate over other top 10 Med graduates, from places such as WashU/Mayo/Hopkins? Medical salaries are much more compressed, and the profiles of students at top 5 med schools are very similar, if not identical. In medicine, the name of the school matters less than in business or law. On that note, I think Harvard’s most desired program might even be the MSTP program…
ohai Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Ok. I by “average” I was referring to the > often-quoted median compensation, so I will > concede your point there. But on this note, how do > you know that the long tail of HLS graduates is > not similarly skewed? Law firm partners can make > millions a year, and law school graduates can do > things other than law, including financial > services. > > Edit: Just from an intuitive level, it does not > make sense to me that business school would give > you higher expected earnings (once you graduate) > compared to law school. Law school costs more > money and time. So, if business school gives you > higher expected income, then that’s a clear life > arbitrage. I wouldn’t call it an arbitrage. Some people simply want to practice law. They find it interesting work, they’re good at it. Also yes there are a lot of law firm partners (HBS probably has the most). But what about all the people who become prosecutors and/or public defenders? They’re making peanuts. Think about all the hedge fund analysts, bankers, and CEO’s that HBS has spit out. I have to imagine that business pays more than law, or at the very least equal to.
Some more HBS alums: Tom Perkins and Frank Caufield (2 of 4 Kliener Perkins founders) Glenn Hutchins and David Roux (2 of 3 executive managers of Silver Lake Partners) Mitt Romney Joseph Perella Bruce Wasserstien (also HLS) Bill Donaldson (CFA) and Dick Jenrette (couldn’t find Lufkin) In my search for these I turned up plenty of Wharton and Stanford grads, and a few Booth grads, and other random grads. No LBS grads. I checked Man Group and Brevan Howard just to be sure.
Ok, then to MML (and I guess also numi), we need to distinguish between what people with either business or law degrees *can do* with their degrees and what they *choose to do*. MML, by saying that law school people enter low paying law fields (like public service) because it is “interesting”, you are saying that they make less money because they choose to make less money, not because they can’t make more money. Similarly, do more business school graduates enter finance because of pre-existing interest, or because they are truly afforded opportunities that are not given to graduates of prestigious law schools? Are law school graduates really excluded from finance jobs, or do they actually have the choice to become investment bankers (Lloyd Blankfein) but choose not to? Also, MML, why would you assume that Harvard is the best law school? Most people say Yale, and Stanford is (arguably) better than Harvard - at least in selectivity.
ohai Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Ok, then to MML (and I guess also numi), we need > to distinguish between what people with either > business or law degrees *can do* with their > degrees and what they *choose to do*. MML, by > saying that law school people enter low paying law > fields (like public service) because it is > “interesting”, you are saying that they make less > money because they choose to make less money, not > because they can’t make more money. Similarly, do > more business school graduates enter finance > because of pre-existing interest, or because they > are truly afforded opportunities that are not > given to graduates of prestigious law schools? Are > law school graduates really excluded from finance > jobs, or do they actually have the choice to > become investment bankers (Lloyd Blankfein) but > choose not to? > > Also, MML, why would you assume that Harvard is > the best law school? Most people say Yale, and > Stanford is (arguably) better than Harvard - at > least in selectivity. To your second point, Yale and Stanford might be better, I still think the Harvard brand name is worth more in the end. Just look at the show on tv called “Suits.” I know its fictional but on the show, the law firm only hires from Harvard. As to your first point, even if a law school grad wanted to pursue finance, I believe that all else being equal, an investment bank or hedge fund would prefer an HBS grad to an HLS grad. I don’t have any empirical evidence to back that claim up. But if I were a hiring manager for a firm, I’d prefer the candidate who has spent the last 2 years studying finance and brushing up on management skills.
Harvard Law turns out a few semi-successful business folks: Lloyd Blankfein - chairman and CEO of Goldman Sachs David Bonderman - founder of Texas Pacific Group (LBO) Doug Carlston - founder of computer game company Brøderbund Software Kenneth Chenault - chairman and CEO of American Express Roger W. Ferguson, Jr. (J.D. 1979) - chairman of Swiss Re America Gerald Grinstein - CEO of Delta Air Lines Charlie Munger Abram Nicholas Pritzker - founder of the Hyatt hotel chain Sumner Redstone Jeff Smisek - Chairman, President, and CEO of Continental Airlines
You’re probably going to do alright no matter where you - HLS, HBS, or HMS. But, I’d say the highest 1% of HMS grads make way less than the top 1% of HLS grads, who in turn make way less than the top 1% of HBS grads. Just a guess, but that feels right.
Sweep the Leg Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > You’re probably going to do alright no matter > where you - HLS, HBS, or HMS. But, I’d say the > highest 1% of HMS grads make way less than the top > 1% of HLS grads, who in turn make way less than > the top 1% of HBS grads. > > Just a guess, but that feels right. You’re definitely right about that.
higgmond Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Harvard Law turns out a few semi-successful > business folks: > > > Lloyd Blankfein - chairman and CEO of Goldman > Sachs > David Bonderman - founder of Texas Pacific Group > (LBO) > Doug Carlston - founder of computer game company > Brøderbund Software > Kenneth Chenault - chairman and CEO of American > Express > Roger W. Ferguson, Jr. (J.D. 1979) - chairman of > Swiss Re America > Gerald Grinstein - CEO of Delta Air Lines > Charlie Munger > Abram Nicholas Pritzker - founder of the Hyatt > hotel chain > Sumner Redstone > Jeff Smisek - Chairman, President, and CEO of > Continental Airlines Blankfein is arguably the worst CEO Goldman has ever had.
ManMythLegend Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > > Blankfein is arguably the worst CEO Goldman has > ever had. Tell that to his bank account.
higgmond Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > ManMythLegend Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > > > Blankfein is arguably the worst CEO Goldman has > > ever had. > > > Tell that to his bank account. Considering that GS has done nothing but go done since his reign of terror, I would imagine his bank account isn’t near as “phat” as his predecessors.
ManMythLegend Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > higgmond Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > ManMythLegend Wrote: > > > -------------------------------------------------- > > > ----- > > > > > > Blankfein is arguably the worst CEO Goldman > has > > > ever had. > > > > > > Tell that to his bank account. > > > Considering that GS has done nothing but go done > since his reign of terror, I would imagine his > bank account isn’t near as “phat” as his > predecessors. Still a heck of a lot better than mine and I suspect 99.986% of the folks on here.
ManMythLegend Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > higgmond Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > ManMythLegend Wrote: > > > -------------------------------------------------- > > > ----- > > > > > > Blankfein is arguably the worst CEO Goldman > has > > > ever had. > > > > > > Tell that to his bank account. > > > Considering that GS has done nothing but go done > since his reign of terror, I would imagine his > bank account isn’t near as “phat” as his > predecessors. Well GS stock was at about $150 when he took over, and it ran up to over $230, before being caught up in the financial crisis, which GS weathered without the serious wounds other firms suffered, even if they survived. After running back up to $160-$180 post crash, it has only recently gone back below $150. During that same period, the relative return has been essentially identical to that of JPM, and he’s beaten the pants off MS, CS, UBS, C, (HA!) and BAC, and I won’t bother mentioning BSC or LEH. Oh that’s right, he’s generally given money to democratic candidates. How dare he. I’m sorry, you’re right. Worst ever. Does it bother you that you’re such a fraud, or does it just kind of roll off your back?
I don’t think we can really blame Lloyd for being the CEO during the worst financial crisis of our life times…
Which sounds more bad a$$? “I went to Harvard, b!tch.” “I went to London Business, b!tch.”
NakedPuts Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > ManMythLegend Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > higgmond Wrote: > > > -------------------------------------------------- > > > ----- > > > ManMythLegend Wrote: > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > ----- > > > > > > > > Blankfein is arguably the worst CEO Goldman > > has > > > > ever had. > > > > > > > > > Tell that to his bank account. > > > > > > Considering that GS has done nothing but go > done > > since his reign of terror, I would imagine his > > bank account isn’t near as “phat” as his > > predecessors. > > Well GS stock was at about $150 when he took over, > and it ran up to over $230, before being caught up > in the financial crisis, which GS weathered > without the serious wounds other firms suffered, > even if they survived. After running back up to > $160-$180 post crash, it has only recently gone > back below $150. > > During that same period, the relative return has > been essentially identical to that of JPM, and > he’s beaten the pants off MS, CS, UBS, C, (HA!) > and BAC, and I won’t bother mentioning BSC or LEH. > > > Oh that’s right, he’s generally given money to > democratic candidates. How dare he. I’m sorry, > you’re right. Worst ever. Does it bother you > that you’re such a fraud, or does it just kind of > roll off your back? GS when he took over = 150 GS currently = 113 Nuff said. But hey naked, keep living in your democratic bubble. Enjoy.
ManMythLegend Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > GS when he took over = 150 > GS currently = 113 > > Nuff said. But hey naked, keep living in your > democratic bubble. Enjoy. All about context. John Thain saw his company fall from grace, but I say he was a genius for being able to sell it at a market premium when others died outright.