GoodXter Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > MattLikesAnalysis Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > sorry. been away for a couple days. > > > > my main point wasn’t about using dirt/sand, > though > > it is the same thing, its just that in the ME, > > there’s a heck of a lot more sand than there is > > dirt where water cannot be found. i cannot find > > scripture mentioning that a woman should clean > up > > before prayer following intercourse. it is > always > > phrased as “a man should wash after having > > intercourse with a woman” but that might be a > > translation issue. either way, the bottom line > is > > that the koran preaches inequality, there is no > > way that you can argue against that. > > > > next. i don’t call you a terrorist, nor do i > jump > > to the conclusion that any muslim is a > terrorist. > > i’ve lived with muslims for 4 years and not > once > > did i worry that they were terrorists. but any > > male muslim who treats women with respect and > who > > puts them on equal grounds is NOT A MUSLIM - > they > > are contradicting their bible, simple as that. > if > > i were a christian but i murder people in my > spare > > time, i’m not a christian. heck, if i’m a > > christian and have pre-marital sex, i’m not a > > christian. > > > > moderate muslims have to come to the > realization > > that they are not muslims and disassociate > > themselves from islam. to maintain some form of > > credibility, they must create a new, edited > koran > > with texts which comply with their lifestyle. > > don’t tell me that you are a believer of the > > original koran, which is a book of hate and > > inequality, unless you practice hate and > > inequality. this is the time for moderate > muslims > > to do to for islam what protestants did for the > > christianity 500 years ago, though the change > > would be much more extreme for islam for sure. > > > > the term “moderate muslim” is in itself a > paradox > > and i don’t understand how “moderate muslims” > can > > live with an association to such a sick and > > twisted book. to end my story, i’ve never met a > > muslim who actually follows his ‘bible’, thus > i’ve > > never met a muslim. its basic logic right? > we’re > > all financial scientists here. if you’re a cfa > > candidate or charterholder, you have to be able > to > > see the logic behind this argument. > > > Apologies too for not having been around > Your claim about Middle East having more sand than > dirt is not correct > This is an extract from Bukhari > "“O So and so, what kept you from praying with the > people?” He said, “O Messenger of Allaah, I became > junub and there is no water.” He said, “You should > use clean earth, for it will suffice you.” " > Junub means unclean due to intercourse or emission > of semen > I don’t live in the ME, but I know the rules of > purification applies to me, muslims in the US etc > Can you post where you picked your idea about > purification being for men only? > I know what I am talking about > A woman MUST purify herself if her naked private > part (vg) comes in contact with a man’s naked > private part (pns) > She will also need to wash up if she comes in her > dream > without doing that, her prayers (salat) are > invalid. This is the case for men too > > You continue to insist that the Qur’an preaches > inequality > You even ignored the post by Ozzie above where > respect for women is emphasised > In most societies, man is placed above women - > socities only differ on degree of subservience > Typically, the woman changes her name to the > man’s > Islam does not require a woman to change her name > I am not sure you would change your name to a > woman’s after marriage to demonstrate this your > love for female equality > Would you also move into your wife’s house? > > Since you keep eulogising christianity > What does 1 Corinthians 14 : 33 say about the > right of women to speak in the church? zero > Can they then become priests if they cannot speak? > certainly not > > “Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, > so let the wives be to their own husbands in every > thing” Ephesians 5 : 21 - 26 > > It is curious that as a christian you take > liberties in determining who is a muslim or not > Even muslims do not take that liberty > There is a difference between a sinner and an > apostate > If a muslim insists that fornication is permitted > or say that it is not necessary to pray > Then he becomes an apostate > But if he fornicates, knowing that it is a sin, > and ywould like to stop it you are just a sinner > But while the Qur’an requires us to deal justly > with a woman, you are saying that doing that makes > me leave the fold of Islam - WOW! this is baffling > and troubling > If I treat a woman with respect, my stock rises in > the eyes of Allah, not the contrary > > The hate in the bible is frightening > When somebody quoted it, you said that is old > testament > When I quoted messages of hate from the new > testament, you kept quiet > > Let me mention that the BIBLE CALL UNBELIEVERS > INFIDEL > the Bible forbids christians (light) from > associating with non-christians (darkness) - > corinthians > > Alhamdu li Llah, I am a muslim > I don’t call myself a moderate, those are tags > used by christians to divide and describe us For > instance, I say that my holy book is Qur’an, you > insist on calling it my bible > You insist on calling me a moderate - what does > that mean? > Now am I in the same boat with suicide bombers? > NO > Suicide bombers are misguided and are disobeying > the injunction that we should not kill ourselves > What they are doing may actually take them out of > Islam > > So I am not the one running the risk of leaving > Islam (may Allah protect me from that) > Extremism exists in a lot of groups, muslims, > chrsitians etc > During the time of the prophet (PBUH), he > cautioned some people who out of zealotry wanted > to fast everyday, pray throughout the night > He warned them that they may leave the fold of > Islam if they persist > So people who are doing extreme things now have > predecessors > It is my duty to join other muslims to continue to > point out the danger of their misguidance > > I don’t have a bible - I have a Qur’an, your > calling my Qur’an a bible is evidence of bias > I never call your holy book by other than the name > you call it > The “logic” is upside down - a christian telling > me how to practise my religion > based on his superficial and utterly biased view > This is as logical as Mao of China educating > Reagan on how to practise capitalism > Mao either has a wrong opinion of his > qualifications or he has a sinister motive > > I have posted to clarify issues - you can provide > evidence and we can take it up > But having to deal with people who ignore evidence > is very tiring > -I have said if this is the case, when this is the > case, I don’t really like discussing on the net Thanks for that. Interesting to get the opinion of someone coming from a Muslim background. It is true what you say that Christianity as it is commonly practised does not put woman and men on an equal footing and also that the Bible contains many passages (including those saying non-Christians will be damned to hell) which are offensive to many people. By the way, the idea of washing one’s privates with sand if water is not available made my eyes water! Do people really so that?
Just wondering, what distance from the WTC should Muslims be restricted from in order not to offend anyone? 2, 4, 6, 8, 10, 12 blocks, all of NYC? I wonder if these Muslims are offended by being unnecessarily associated with the murder of 3000 people… But who cares how Muslims feel right?
GoodXter Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Apologies too for not having been around > Your claim about Middle East having more sand than > dirt is not correct > This is an extract from Bukhari > "“O So and so, what kept you from praying with the > people?” He said, “O Messenger of Allaah, I became > junub and there is no water.” He said, “You should > use clean earth, for it will suffice you.” " > Junub means unclean due to intercourse or emission > of semen > I don’t live in the ME, but I know the rules of > purification applies to me, muslims in the US etc > Can you post where you picked your idea about > purification being for men only? > I know what I am talking about > A woman MUST purify herself if her naked private > part (vg) comes in contact with a man’s naked > private part (pns) > She will also need to wash up if she comes in her > dream > without doing that, her prayers (salat) are > invalid. This is the case for men too > > You continue to insist that the Qur’an preaches > inequality > You even ignored the post by Ozzie above where > respect for women is emphasised > In most societies, man is placed above women - > socities only differ on degree of subservience > Typically, the woman changes her name to the > man’s > Islam does not require a woman to change her name > I am not sure you would change your name to a > woman’s after marriage to demonstrate this your > love for female equality > Would you also move into your wife’s house? > > Since you keep eulogising christianity > What does 1 Corinthians 14 : 33 say about the > right of women to speak in the church? zero > Can they then become priests if they cannot speak? > certainly not > > “Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, > so let the wives be to their own husbands in every > thing” Ephesians 5 : 21 - 26 > > It is curious that as a christian you take > liberties in determining who is a muslim or not > Even muslims do not take that liberty > There is a difference between a sinner and an > apostate > If a muslim insists that fornication is permitted > or say that it is not necessary to pray > Then he becomes an apostate > But if he fornicates, knowing that it is a sin, > and ywould like to stop it you are just a sinner > But while the Qur’an requires us to deal justly > with a woman, you are saying that doing that makes > me leave the fold of Islam - WOW! this is baffling > and troubling > If I treat a woman with respect, my stock rises in > the eyes of Allah, not the contrary > > The hate in the bible is frightening > When somebody quoted it, you said that is old > testament > When I quoted messages of hate from the new > testament, you kept quiet > > Let me mention that the BIBLE CALL UNBELIEVERS > INFIDEL > the Bible forbids christians (light) from > associating with non-christians (darkness) - > corinthians > > Alhamdu li Llah, I am a muslim > I don’t call myself a moderate, those are tags > used by christians to divide and describe us For > instance, I say that my holy book is Qur’an, you > insist on calling it my bible > You insist on calling me a moderate - what does > that mean? > Now am I in the same boat with suicide bombers? > NO > Suicide bombers are misguided and are disobeying > the injunction that we should not kill ourselves > What they are doing may actually take them out of > Islam > > So I am not the one running the risk of leaving > Islam (may Allah protect me from that) > Extremism exists in a lot of groups, muslims, > chrsitians etc > During the time of the prophet (PBUH), he > cautioned some people who out of zealotry wanted > to fast everyday, pray throughout the night > He warned them that they may leave the fold of > Islam if they persist > So people who are doing extreme things now have > predecessors > It is my duty to join other muslims to continue to > point out the danger of their misguidance > > I don’t have a bible - I have a Qur’an, your > calling my Qur’an a bible is evidence of bias > I never call your holy book by other than the name > you call it > The “logic” is upside down - a christian telling > me how to practise my religion > based on his superficial and utterly biased view > This is as logical as Mao of China educating > Reagan on how to practise capitalism > Mao either has a wrong opinion of his > qualifications or he has a sinister motive > > I have posted to clarify issues - you can provide > evidence and we can take it up > But having to deal with people who ignore evidence > is very tiring > -I have said if this is the case, when this is the > case, I don’t really like discussing on the net i’m a christian? hmm, news to me, but thanks for letting me know. many things to rebut here so please be patient. here a definition of the word bible according to merriam-webster. “a publication that is preeminent especially in authoritativeness or wide readership”. my usage of the word bible does not reflect a christian bias but an english bias. that is the language we are currently speaking right? next. i am not christian. i’m deist. so i have no bias when it comes to claiming that islam is a religion of hate. i recognize christianity (which is based on NEW TESTAMENT only! if you truly knew anything about it), buddhism, shinto and hinduism as peaceful religions. most other large religions are built on hate and division. that said, even christianity, buddhism, shinto and hinduism indirectly promote division through collectivism. all organized religions oppose a unified society so they are all bad, but the four i mentioned above can coexist with all other religions. as for providing the verses which state that it only applies to men, you still have failed to provide me a verse that says its available to women. being the muslim, i’ll leave it up to you to prove that the koran directly states that women must also clean up as you are likley more familiar with the location of the excerpt. as for christianity’s restrictions on women. they are within the church itself and do not apply to anything outside of the church. your book states that women shouldn’t leave the house without a tarp on them, with indifference to whether its a health hazard or not. the bottom line is that if you are not an extremeist, and you do believe in equal rights, you should differentiate yourself away from islam in order to remove the association with extremists who embrace the texts. the association is shameful. it is the lack of disassociation from the more restrictive verses in the koran that makes Islam look bad. yes, there are greats sections of the koran, but the intolerant verses are the ones that cause uproar and disrespect. the problem is that you can’t start editing the koran or you’ll have a price on your head. i think that says enough about the religion right there.
Carson Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > > > Thanks for that. Interesting to get the opinion of > someone coming from a Muslim background. > > It is true what you say that Christianity as it is > commonly practised does not put woman and men on > an equal footing and also that the Bible contains > many passages (including those saying > non-Christians will be damned to hell) which are > offensive to many people. > > By the way, the idea of washing one’s privates > with sand if water is not available made my eyes > water! Do people really so that? The purification with sand does not involve washing the private parts This is the procedure you strike the earth with your hands, then you wipe your whole face, then you wipe each arm with the other hand That is all This is only allowed when you cannot find water
MattLikesAnalysis Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > > > i’m a christian? hmm, news to me, but thanks for > letting me know. > > many things to rebut here so please be patient. > > here a definition of the word bible according to > merriam-webster. “a publication that is preeminent > especially in authoritativeness or wide > readership”. my usage of the word bible does not > reflect a christian bias but an english bias. that > is the language we are currently speaking right? > > next. i am not christian. i’m deist. so i have no > bias when it comes to claiming that islam is a > religion of hate. i recognize christianity (which > is based on NEW TESTAMENT only! if you truly knew > anything about it), buddhism, shinto and hinduism > as peaceful religions. most other large religions > are built on hate and division. that said, even > christianity, buddhism, shinto and hinduism > indirectly promote division through collectivism. > all organized religions oppose a unified society > so they are all bad, but the four i mentioned > above can coexist with all other religions. > > as for providing the verses which state that it > only applies to men, you still have failed to > provide me a verse that says its available to > women. being the muslim, i’ll leave it up to you > to prove that the koran directly states that women > must also clean up as you are likley more familiar > with the location of the excerpt. > > as for christianity’s restrictions on women. they > are within the church itself and do not apply to > anything outside of the church. your book states > that women shouldn’t leave the house without a > tarp on them, with indifference to whether its a > health hazard or not. > > the bottom line is that if you are not an > extremeist, and you do believe in equal rights, > you should differentiate yourself away from islam > in order to remove the association with extremists > who embrace the texts. the association is > shameful. it is the lack of disassociation from > the more restrictive verses in the koran that > makes Islam look bad. yes, there are greats > sections of the koran, but the intolerant verses > are the ones that cause uproar and disrespect. > > the problem is that you can’t start editing the > koran or you’ll have a price on your head. i think > that says enough about the religion right there. I apologise for calling you a christian. http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/bible Also among the definitions given by your source is this “the sacred scriptures of Christians comprising the Old Testament and the New Testament” Typically, you find Bible specifically written on the Christian’s Bible They call it The “Holy” Bible and similar variants You will never find it written on the Muslim’s Qur’an A muslim will never call the Qur’an his bible BTW it is christians that call Muslims Islamists, a muslim does not have to invent a new name for himself I am not claiming to be an expert in Christian theology. But it is curious that as a non- christian you can decide what christianity is derived from. All the Christians that I know teach both old and new testaments. And if they do not believe in the old testament, why include it in the bible, what will be the genesis of man and creation, why do they claim that God created man in his own image? Without the old testament, christianity has no roots The fact that I am not an American does not mean I might not have some sympathy (and consequently some bias) in a dispute between the US and Russia Your posts provide envidence of bias. How? You are pronouncing on Islam without serious research (on Islam) Islam is based on the Qur’an and the Sunnah (speech and acts of the Prophet (PBUH) and actions taken in his presence that he did not forbid). These are in the books of Ahadeeth. One such book is Muslim Muslim (332) narrated from ‘Aa’ishah (may Allaah be pleased with her) that Asma’ asked the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) about ghusl following menses. He said: “Let one of you take her water and lotus leaves and clean herself well, then let her pour water over her head and rub it vigorously so that it will reach the roots of her hair. Then let her pour the water over herself, then take a piece of cloth scented with musk and purify herself.” Asma’ said: How should she purify herself? He said: “Subhaan-Allaah! Purify yourself with it.” ‘Aa’ishah said – as if she whispered it to her – Follow the traces of blood. And she asked him about ghusl in the case of janaabah. He said: “Let her take water and clean herself well – or clean herself thoroughly – then let her pour water over her head and rub it so that it reaches the roots of the hair, then let her pour water over herself.” ‘Aa’ishah said: How good the woman of the Ansaar were! They did not let shyness prevent them from understanding their religion properly. When the Bible directs women to submit to their husbands in everything. It includes in my opinion the clothes to wear and where and when to write the CFA exam etc. These are not church’s issues in my opinion. A tarp on women wherever they want to go. How? The problem we have these days is that we use extreme language to heighten passion in all discussions. The language being used during the healthcare reform debate was shocking and this is becoming a worrying tradition in the US. You wonder why everything is becoming so politicised Islam is not immune from the extremism that results from polarisation of the society In France, they started by saying that the veil is a coffin, a symbol of oppression They just assumed that any lady covering her body is coerced into doing that Sincerely, I know a lot of girls who want to use the veil, but are PROHIBITED by their parents from doing so. They use the veil at school and “dress down” at home In France, we noh have a law that did not sample the opinions of the supposedly-oppressed people and just make it illegal for them to dress in a certain fashion even if they freely want to dress in that manner. Is that not oppressive? So in the name of promoting the rights of women, a lady no longer has the right to cover their bodies in a manner they want but those who want to bare as mush as possible or can take off everything in certain places And this is happening in the same country Actually, I am not ashamed of Islam I am not disociating myself from anything in the Qur’an What I try to understand is how did the Prophet (PBUH) explain the Qur’an Non-Muslims take the Qur’an and just start pronouncing on Islam If I take the Bible and try to do the same, I am told that I am quoting out of context I need to be in the spirit to understand the Bible Fair enough. But why can we not apply the same standard to the Qur’an? What is really shameful is the belief by some people that everything done by a terrorist is acceptable to muslims People showed signs of extremism during the time of the Prophet (PBUH) He condemned it strongly But these strange positions persist but are not part of Islam. I do not judge America by the actions of Timothy McVeigh, or the guy that crashed his plane into a IRS office early this year. Again, I don’t need to leave Islam. I only need to practise Islam based on the correct interpretation of the Quran ie based on the acts, directives etc of the Prophet (PBUH) I pray that the day never comes when I would be sick enough to want to edit the Qur’an. The price on my head is the risk of apostasy (may Allah save me from that). This is the greatest calamity that can befall a muslim. I face enough risks these days on the streets of NYC from haters of muslims to bother myself about some extremists who want to take my head for any misguided notion of how to defend Islam. BTW, christians publish fake Qur’an as part of their efforts at “reforming the world”. The Economist (The Battle of the Books) once reported on such “enlightened efforts”. Have you heard of muslims doing the same to the Bible. Meanwhile if Christians want to release different versions of the Bible for different times, societies, sexes. That is their own business. They have Revised Standard version (which I used when I was required to study in a public school headed by a christian), King James version etc anyway. But I am not interested in copying Christians. To them their religion; to me mine
doesn’t the koran state that the old and new testament is the word of god but that the jews have corrupted the text and that the christians treat jesus as a messiah instead of a prophet (as muslims treat him). doesn’t that mean that christians and muslims treat the old testament in the same way? that’s all i’m trying to get across here. if so, then the words in the old testament reflect on both the christians and muslims in the same way and neither religions give the old testament much respect. in a christian church, the old testament is almost never studied. i’m assuming its never studied in a mosque. its essentially the same. as for the freedom to wear a burqa, i’m with you. i think people should be allowed to wear whatever they please. i agree that people should be given the ability to exercise their rights so long as they do not preach hate. if they preach hate to any other member of society, its against the good of society and that individual should be ‘expelled’ from said society. the real issue that i have with islam is its position on a woman’s sexual slavery in marriage. it is my understanding that a woman must essentially give in to her husband’s desires once she is within the constructs of marriage. i would love to hear your rebuttal on this subject. this is also one subject that all other faiths have not made mention nor rules.
Can I wear nothing if I choose?
ASSet_MANagement Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Can I wear nothing if I choose? i don’t have a problem with that, so long as you’re well-bathed…
itercaom??