ohai Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Also, many shoe-related running injuries are > caused by poor selection of shoes, rather than by > the nature of the shoes themselves. For instance, > if you have a neutral gait, you should not use > stability shoes, as these are designed for over > pronaters and will put too much pressure on your > arches. There are studies that refute your premise (if I can find them I will post). They show the rate of injury has not gone down with all the technology put into shoes. The idea behind the free runner stuff is that the foot is an arch, which by its design, can handle the load placed upon it using the muscles and connective tissue (and will adapt to larger loads). A shoe is essentially a brace for the foot and a brace will decrease muscle activity and cause atrophy (no adaptation). That is the idea anyway. I still use running shoes, but I will likely try a lighter weight shoe and transfer my gait to a forefoot or midfoot strike.
Are there studies that show that “free motion” shoes reduce injury in long distance running?
Here is some of the stuff I have been reading: http://news.sciencemag.org/sciencenow/2010/01/27-01.html This study shows impact forces were lower for those without shoes BECAUSE they changed their gate naturally to land on the forefoot and transfer some the impact to the calf. Those that wore shoes struck on the heel and had impact forces almost double. So if you believe that force is what causes the injury you could guess that running barefoot here would reduce injury…but that is my extrapolation. That being said, I would assume that if you used a “barefoot” gait with running shoes, shock will be even further reduced. More technical: http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~skeleton/pdfs/2010a.pdf
ohai Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > I don’t believe in the health benefits of natural > running in a world with modern sports technology. > A natural gait might be best for running without > shoes, but with modern shoes, it is optimal to > absorb impact with cushioned parts of your shoes, > rather than less cushioned parts of your feet. > > If society crumbles and we no longer have a supply > of sports shoes, then maybe all these marathon > runners will be screwed. However, as long as we’re > not compelled to run without proper cushioning, > using running shoes is probably safer than > uncushioned running. Modern technology doesn’t always get things right.
True, but what is the evidence that it has not in this case?
ohai Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > True, but what is the evidence that it has not in > this case? I am not sure there is. For whatever reason, it appears that those that put on shoes (even barefoot runners) start to begin heel striking. This leads to higher impact forces. So smart shoemakers try to solve the problem of high impact forces, but maybe you don’t need the shoes? I don’t know. I still wear them, but I am at least willing to try a different running style.
Hmm, well its logical if you think that our bodies did not evolve with the intent of a heal to to gait. But, here are some papers too: https://www.thieme-connect.com/ejournals/abstract/sportsmed/doi/10.1055/s-2004-821327 http://sportsci.org/jour/0103/mw.htm https://www.thieme-connect.com/ejournals/abstract/sportsmed/doi/10.1055/s-2007-989233
I marathon at least once a month with some ultra’s thrown in the mix as well. If you have questions on the VFF’s (I train on them), you can email me at q.benjamin@gmail.com That being said, for what the OP wants (sub 5 mile warm up run), I WOULD NOT recommend the VFF’s. They’re more useful for rebuilding / refining strides of long distance runners (most run the actual events in running shoes). For a casual runner, there’s simply too much risk, many serious foot / joint injuries have been caused by casual runners adopting VFF’s. Also, the same stride development can be done in running shoes by simply choosing ones with low or neutral heels (not support shoes for over pronators) and consciously making sure to land on the mid sole or balls of your feet, much safer method. Regarding the basketball shoes, you should be fine. You can invest in running shoes (I like ASICS) if you want and you may find it makes the running more enjoyable (lighter, smoother stride, breathe better, etc). But realistically, unless you’re morbidly obese (which doesn’t seem to be the case) or have terrible stride mechanics (also doesn’t seem to be the case) it is highly unlikely that you will experience any problems. Buying running shoes to prevent injury on 2-3 mile runs is just way over conservative and probably leads to more injuries than it prevents by turning people into panzies rather than allowing their joints to strengthen through exercise. This all being said, I am not a doctor, or a personal trainer, just a frequent runner that likes to read. Although in my opinion, when it comes to running, most of what PT’s and doctors say (especially the non distance runner ones) is closer to witch craft than science. EDIT: There are at least as many research papers and editorials published by leading doctors (that specialize on treating runners) saying that VFF’s are causing major spikes in difficult to heal injuries.
Black Swan Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > EDIT: There are at least as many research papers > and editorials published by leading doctors (that > specialize on treating runners) saying that VFF’s > are causing major spikes in difficult to heal > injuries. i would never get these shoes for running, not enough support in the arches a lot of people wear the old-school converse to get the same benefits from minimal cushioning
Black Swan Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > EDIT: There are at least as many research papers > and editorials published by leading doctors (that > specialize on treating runners) saying that VFF’s > are causing major spikes in difficult to heal > injuries. Really? I went on google scholar and searched for vibram five fingers injuries/injury and only came up with injury reduction. Perhaps I need to rephrase? I do agree that you need to ease into it and but I disagree that bare foor running is solely beneficial for distance runners.
brain_wash_your_face Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > I disagree that bare foor running is solely > beneficial for distance runners. it does help, to an extent. if you wear them casually your stablizers will strengthen substantially, but if you wear them when lifting weights, running extensively or doing other high-strain activities you can seriously strain the bones and connective tissue in your feet. i swear by nb shoes for their arch and heel support; great for running, lifting weights and posture.
mar350 Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > if you wear them > casually your stablizers will strengthen > substantially, but if you wear them when lifting > weights, running extensively or doing other > high-strain activities Actually, it is almost impossible to squat correctly when wearing running shoes, because they pitch your weight forward and you want to drive through your heals. Same for many other exercises. Weight lifting shoes (or converse/vans) are much more similar to barefoot/vff than are running shoes. Edit: Think about it. If you drive with your heels in compressible soled shoes, the soles will compress and then your power will be inefficient, and you are likely to lose your balance once the weight gets heavy.
maybe my shoes aren’t running shoes then. they just have a rigid piece of plastic under the arch that provides great support and alignment. similar to these: http://www.zappos.com/new-balance-mr7500-black i have a pair of adidas bouncy shoes, but would never wear them to the gym, just on longer runs.
Anyone have any experience with Newtons? I’ve been looking at them for awhile but am apprehensive about spending $155 on running shoes. On the other hand, if they really are all that, health is nearly priceless…well, worth $155 http://www.newtonrunning.com/run-better/optimal-running-form
brain_wash_your_face Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Black Swan Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > EDIT: There are at least as many research > papers > > and editorials published by leading doctors > (that > > specialize on treating runners) saying that > VFF’s > > are causing major spikes in difficult to heal > > injuries. > > Really? I went on google scholar and searched for > vibram five fingers injuries/injury and only came > up with injury reduction. Perhaps I need to > rephrase? > > I do agree that you need to ease into it and but I > disagree that bare foor running is solely > beneficial for distance runners. You have to google around a bit, I did a quick search for “barefoot injuries” (running with Vibrams is considered barefoot or “virtual barefoot” running). Within the results for barefoot injuries they specifically mention Vibrams as among the primary causes. Some Examples: http://running.competitor.com/2010/05/features/the-barefoot-running-injury-epidemic_10118 http://www.sportsscientists.com/2010/05/barefoot-running-and-injuries.html
so one of our BOM EVP’s fractured the arch of his foot after training in vff’s for about a month. he was up to running ~20 miles in them. despite this i’m either getting a pair of either vff bikila’s or nb mt101’s in the coming weeks as my current gym shoes are spent and being demoted to marine moron-a-thons. yes - i am that idiot.
mar350 Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > so one of our BOM EVP’s fractured the arch of his > foot after training in vff’s for about a month. he > was up to running ~20 miles in them. > > despite this i’m either getting a pair of either > vff bikila’s or nb mt101’s in the coming weeks as > my current gym shoes are spent and being demoted > to marine moron-a-thons. yes - i am that idiot. The new balance mt101’s look pretty good, I would really push you away from the VFF’s unless you’re going to dedicate your workout around getting the stride right (foot fractures are a common problem with people that try to push high mileage in VFF’s too soon). That being said, I’ve run full marathons in VFF’s before. I just picked up a new pair of Saucony Kinvara’s and I’d HEAVILY recommend them to people looking to transition towards minimalist footwear. I still run on VFF’s some times as part of my training, but as a primary training shoe think they’d be a terrible idea (taking the principals behind the minimalist thing too far). I do subscribe to the minimalist school of thought but think people have taken it too far to the point of being harmful. Kinvara’s I think represent a pretty ideal balance for everyday training and have been a wildly popular shoe this year. A lot of these guys spouting hardcore rhetoric about minimalist running are either lightweights with too low of mileage to know what they’re talking about or just haven’t done their research. Most of them have read Born to Run and think because a few poor people in Mexico don’t own running shoes that the whole tribe is on to something. Jurek himself has stated in various interviews and speaking sessions that the book was presented with inaccurate bias in many places and he doesn’t agree with the author in many of those places. In fact he uses a variety of strides for different conditions but is often a “heel striker”. And while many ultra guys have gone the minimalist route, I still encounter a large number of them (even some of the big names) running with support shoes, etc. My advice is to use baby steps to transition with your running (ie, go to shoes like the kinvara, green silence, etc) before thinking about VFF’s and make minor adjustments to your stride. Sometimes if it ain’t broke, you risk messing yourself up by trying to fix it. I’m still unsure of how I got my knee injury, cause it came the week following a 50 miler and I was alternating between traditional ASICS and VFF’s at that time, but part of me wants to blame the VFF’s.
BTW, if you’re going to get into serious trail running, I love the La Sportiva Crosslites, just thinking about wearing them gets me pumped. The tread are the equivalent of a military humvee off road and the weight is like a track shoe.
Do you really run a full marathon every month ? How do you train for that ?
I was doing that, up until I took 2 months off for a knee injury (probably from the VFF’s). Just started running again this week, feeling pretty strong. Eventually you just reach a point where your weekly mileage is high enough that your recovery times are pretty small and a marathon isn’t as big of a crucible anymore. The marathons themselves basically become a part of the training. The biggest thing you can’t do is just stop running after a marathon if you want to maintain that kind of schedule. Maybe 2-3 days off, but then you start back in with a 5 mile day or two (to test for pain) before ramping back up to full distance. A lot of ultra runners do 60-100 miles a week, with a few registering more. Those guys typically do long runs exceeding a marathon on weekends (maybe not every weekend). So for them its pretty common, they just don’t bother paying to race. You can’t jump into generally its best to start with a marathon then decrease the time between until you’re just cranking them out. It’s not best practice if you’re obsessed with time though, your times will be mediocre at best, but I don’t really run competitively, I do it for fun, so hey. I ran my first marathon in the end of August after about a 2-3 month training period starting from scratch (0 mileage). I ran my next marathon 2 weeks later and by early November had chalked up 5 marathons and a 50 mile ultra. Some of the marathons were back to back weekends. My mileage was like 70-80 a week probably, my paces were really relaxed tho, I did most of my running at night through the city like 3 hours a night from 9-12 in the fall, I call it night-thonning. My times didn’t improve over the period, but my recover times for a marathon became like non-existant, maybe 2 days until I could be doing 10+ mile days again and by the next weekend I’d be feeling like 95%.