the law should include the least amount of subjectivity possible. has anyone seen chuck & larry? those guys were hounded but that’s the way it should be. prove your dedication to your choice or predisposition or whatever it is scientifically accepted as these days, by chopping it off. if you don’t, know that you will look out of place in the washroom for the rest of your life. but really, how out of place will you look? if a person who looks like a girl is using a urinal, i’m not going to question it. if there’s a dude showering with little girls, i’m going to question it.
You insensitive bastard. Age ain’t nothing but a number, and you have no right to tell him how he should identify. If I can’t shower with middle-school girls, then I’m going to sue somebody!
THIS IS MY GOD-GIVEN, CONSTITUTIONALLY PROTECTED, FUNDAMENTAL INALIENABLE RIGHT–TO BE ABLE TO TO SHOWER WITH 15 YEAR OLD GIRLS, AS LONG AS I FEEL LIKE I, TOO, AM A 15 YEAR OLD GIRL!!!
Why? Who made you the boss? In many cases gender is ambiguous.
What I don’t get is people automatically assume that mixed gender bathrooms are a haven for predators, yet they ignore the fact that men can just as easily prey on boys.
I bet Greenman is okay with that since he only has girls.
But sex is not. And I see no reason why we should prefer gender over sex when discussing a place that is utilized for purely biological functions, such as peeing and pooping.
Well, my son was born a male, but I identify him as a female now. I just can’t get the pediatrician to get with the program.
that doesn’t make any sense. So do people with differing gender identities not need to execute biological functions like peeing and pooping?
Plus if you identified as a girl you would know that statement was wrong.
You can get him to get with the program if you are serious about it. But if he continues on identifying as a male, I bet you are completely OK with him potentially running into predators in the mens’ room?
As usual, South Park nailed this issue a long time ago…
^Epic episode. It was in the back of mind during this discussion. The part with Mr. Garrison chasing his loose testicals around and the clip of the surgery always made me so uncomfortable though.
Are people genuinely upset about transsexuals using the bathroom to pee and crap using the gender they identify with?
Or are we concerned about the non-transsexual men who might abuse the allowance to get their perv on in the women’s room and using the excuse that they were identifying female at the time when, in fact, they weren’t.
I think the latter is a real issue, though not necessarily one that means we should use anatomy as the benchmark. Meanwhile I think the former is people getting too upset minding other peoples’ business.
Again, I think people should use the room that they present as. I think most male pervs are not going to bother putting on a dress and bra in order to do the bathroom gambit, though I do recognize there is probably a tiny subset that will get off on that.
As for locker rooms and changing rooms and showers, that’s a separate issue that requires more thought. In today’s world, more places have shower stalls, which I think solves a lot of the problem.
People who have started hormone treatment M->F are going to have difficult times in any case in those areas. You’ll see people with external plumbing and breasts in the shower, and people with internal plumbing and beards. I know a lot of people would rather those folks just go away and will try to use those laws to do it, which is why the situation causes alarm.
this is the only issue. i’m pretty sure nobody here is prejudiced against the LGBT community. most of us have been vocal that we don’t mind ladymen using the men’s washroom nor would we really care if they used the ladies washroom if they were legit. our acceptance of ladymen in the mens washroom should mean that they are accepted by all in the mens washroom, seeing as we’re the most fervently against the other option, making us wild social conservatives apparently. why is this an issue if the most socially conserative are the ones that are defending the right of men who identify as women to use the mens washroom? why aren’t they comfortable in the mens washroom?
For me its the latter issue (non-trans men abusing the law). I think what frustrated me so much initially was being lumped into a transphobic group which I thought was an unfair charaterization. I’m probably a bit hypersensitive to what I perceive as aggressive PC tactics because of my own biases on that subject (the subject of PC culture). I would feel better if more people in favor of going with a gender identity honor system were at least openly acknowledging these risks and concerned so I felt it wasn’t just a blind charge forward in the name of progress as the laws and framework are drafted.
Anyhow, at this point I’m content to sit back and see how things play out while hoping for the best after debating it to death. For all I know I may be blowing the risk way out of proportion, and if the concerns are legitimate I figure women can speak for themselves in voicing these concerns. It’s a male dominated forum, but I did feel a little strange repeatedly having to state what was OK or not OK for women’s comfort in their own bathroom given that I’m largely guessing as a man. It really needs to be a debate handled among the women’s community in my mind.
To MLA’s point, I thought it was paradoxical to be called transphobic as a man campaigning to keep transgender individuals in the men’s bathroom or more accurately out of the women’s restroom (I would have been completely down with all transgenders of both sexes using the men’s bathroom if they were comfortable with it).
To me, it’s more the principle of the matter. It’s the fact that when the progressives of the world get an idea stuck in their head, no matter how stupid it may be, it spreads like wildfire until it becomes national policy at the expense of the rational, intelligent people.
I was/am a supporter of gay rights, and I’m glad they finally get the same conferrence of economic benefits of straight people. And while supporting gay rights, I remember people saying, “What’s next? Pretty soon you’ll be able to marry more than one person. You’ll be able to marry a horse. You’ll be able to marry the Earth.” At the time, I thought that was silly and there’s no way we, as a society, would allow something quite so ridiculous.
Now, we have men (Olympic gold medalists, in fact) “identifying” as women. I’m okay with that, but there’s a point where I refuse to allow these people pick and choose their restroom/locker room/shower because of whatever their personality “feels like” at that particular moment. I have a dick, and when I take a shower after my workout, I expect to see a lot of other people wth dicks. (no homo) I do not want to see tits and tacos. There is a separate place for tits and tacos.
A few hundred years ago, people like this were burned at the stake. Thirty years ago, they were beaten on the street. Ten years ago, they were ridiculed and mocked for being fkng weirdos. Now, I don’t advocate burning/beating/belittling anybody. They deserve to be left alone. But I too want to be left alone to do my business in an area that should be exclusively reserved for people with dicks.
These people who “identify” as something they’re not are not leaving me alone. They are asserting that their “right to an ambiguous, fluid gender” is somehow greater than my right to not have to look at something.
If a person wants to look at tits and tacos, fine. Turn on the redtube or go to Rick’s or something. But mewn with conscientious (sp) objection to women being in their private space have the right to their own private space (and vice versa). The fact that we are having this conversation tells me how absolutely fking ridiculous our society is about being PC and “progressive”.
To add to my last–if Bruce Jenner wants to wear dresses, padded bras, wigs and makeup, then so be it. (Personally, I think he’s a fking confused idiot. But that’s just my opinion.) I’m not going to tell him he can’t. He should have the right to do that. But I draw the line at bathrooms/shower/locker rooms. These are places that are reserved for people with certain biological organs and functions, and it should remain that way.
Note - I’m also against the idea of female reporters in men’s locker rooms, and I’m against the idea of female coaches being the men’s locker rooms. If I were emperor, I would completely ban women from men’s locker rooms. If Hannah Storm wants to interview somebody, she can wait outside until they come out. (I’m sure I’ll hear from the thought police about how I’m “denigrating women by not affording them the same opportunities as men, and thereby exacerbating the glass-ceiling problem” or some such crap.
It goes without saying that men, regardless of their role or profession, shouldn’t be allowed in women’s locker rooms.
i agree wrt to men’s locker rooms but i think it would it be fair of Hannah Storm also undressed in the mens locker room while interviewing the athletes. if i were the athlete, i would feel more comfortable if she let it all hang out as well. equal opportunity!
Still not sure why this is illegal.
Because legalizing polygamy would destabilize the institute of marriage and lead to a spike in domestic violence as drunk men everywhere ill advisedly broach the topic and get beaten by their wives. After the initial transition I think things would settle down.
Also I agree with you.
Ha ha ha
To be honest, I see the point you guys making about the potential for abuse and my argument is no longer on that point even if it still totally bamboozles me that the US pysche seems to home in on that point and it’s become such a huge issue. I honestly don’t think any other developed country would have that focus. I’m quite sure when the issue came into the public eye all the rapists and abusers were sitting at home cheering that they could now legally enter any bathroom they wanted. Rapists and abusers are clearly all very concerned about not breaking the law.
Personally, I think the comments like ‘I now identify as a car’ etc are transphobic.
It’s sad. I always thought the people with the midset that would approve of the NC bathroom laws were just old cranky racists that would eventually die off. Unfortunately, it looks like there’s a new generation coming up.
Also, what’s with conservatives and bathrooms, it’s a bathroom not a sex shop. All sex should and is banned in public spaces. As for allowing people in with a young girl – um if I’m at a public place and I’m with my 8 year old neice she’s either coming in the men’s room with me or I’m going to the ladies room with her (just in case Senator Craig is in there).
Yeah, don’t group me in with Greenman. I’m not taking a stance on his argument, I just don’t share it.
I also was thinking that if things had just quietly transitioned to transgender people using whatever bathroom they wanted without all the political ruckus the potential for abuse would have been much less as the shift would have largely flown under the radar. It probably is a very American thing to think of it this way which is probably evenly attributable to our non-stop sensationalized news addictions that lead to thoughts of the boogie man, engrained cultural biases and what may possibly be a less mentally healthy society versus Europe.