The Soccer Thread

on the manager chat, you’re both so wrong.

Alex Ferguson is the best manager that has ever lived. No-one is close to his consistent level of success in the modern era. He had a tight grip on the club, not just coaching the team like a lot of european managers. He got the best out every player, knew when to sell and dominated the best league in the world for almost 25 years. its fair to say that he didn’t truly convert the domestic dominance to european dominance but he still won the CL twice and would have won 2 more in the last few years of his reign if he hadn’t come up against the best side of the modern era.

Mourinho is a top tier manager, he’s proven that he can be successful everywhere he goes which is no mean feat. granted he’s done it ugly but there are few managers who you could guarantee would be successful wherever they go. Who else has won 4 domestic leagues and the CL with 2 different clubs?

.

Aussies, Yes.

Afghanies, do not know.

England perform about in line with their RESOURCES? seriously?

England spend tons and tons of money on their football team and they can’t even go beyond round of 16. Sometimes they even fail to qualify for an event altogether. They are the biggest underachievers in my book. Their players are way way over hyped. Mediocre players are branded as the next Zidane.

They have been telling this for the past 12 years. 2002 wc was seen as the rise of the Asia and they have not moved an inch from then on.

That’s very true. While throughout his whole career european dominance wasn’t there, during his final years it certainly was. Between 2007/08 and 2010/11 Manchester United were in 3 champions league finals. That’s 3 finals in 4 years!

To say Alex Ferguson never converted his domestic dominance to european dominance doesn’t tell the whole story.

The only reason that 2 of those 3 champions league finals were lost was because they were up against the greatest Barcelona team of all time and arguably the best club team there has ever been (at that particular time, not these days).

He did dominate Europe. He just didn’t dominate Barca and their “anti-football”, tiki-taka methods.

Pep’s comments last night were as laughable as some of the shite that Mourinho comes out with. His Bayern side have been totally impotent against big sides this year. possession football without the speed and penetration required to win big games

Saying that the Real players are better athletes than they are footballers is bollocks and saying that had Bayern played “vertically” (read, actually tried to move up the pitch) they would have been picked off on the counter is really just admitting that Real are a better attacking side.

Schweinsteiger is out of position, the decision to play Lahm in midfield was misguided and Boateng is terrible in my opinion

Real’s tactics were spot on but they might be made to pay for not taking their chances. It looks like Mourinho might beat Pep to make it 3 CL trophies…

Was talking about Japan. I have been to Kabul. Every park you go to they play footy…it’s in their culture. Sadly due to a no of reasons they can’t make the best of it.

Yes England perform in line with their resources. Can’t get into the details of that right now. I recommend a book called Socceronomics if you’re interested

China - They have set up a league that is able to pull the likes of Dider Drogba, Lucas Barrios and Anelka and they can afford to pay them mammoth wages.

Such things take time and do not happen linearly.

^

That’s what i’m saying. Alex ferguson is the best in the modern era. No one comes close. But if you go a bit deeper Bob Paisley sits at the table with him.

6 league titles and 3 european titles in 9 years is insane however you cut it.

Mourinho is good, not worth the hype though. If i had a choice i would pick Ancelotti and Pep over him who have equally good records and play good football.

Benitez showed he had his number too, the man broke real madrid and barcas stranglehold with valencia and his liverpool side were dominating europe with players like igor biscan and djimi traore. if he had got the funds he needed i’m pretty sure he and mourinho would be neck and neck by now.

But now, BR, Klopp and Simeone are going to give him a tough time on a quarter of the budget he’s had with madrid, inter and chelsea.

total myth.

gerard pique

diego forlan

Giuseppe rossi

jaap staam

paul pogba

chicharito

kagawa

Furthermore , he had absolutely no idea how to handle creative players, especially South American ones. He was a great manager, but you’re smoking if you have him top two, much less best in the world.nhe was a great leader and motivator, but tactically not on the same level as others.

Have you looked at the level of competition paisley faced the first two European cups? You’re quick to dismiss mourinhos wins, but happily forget when it comes to Paisley.

also if you think Klopp, br, and simeone are “going to give him a tough time” you’re joking. Mourinhos has been proving himself at the highest level for years now, br, Klopp, and simeone aren’t anything new.

Good news for Belgium. Januzaj has decided to play for them. Can’t wait to see them in a few years. Hazard, Vermaelen, Kompany, Witsel, Vertonghen, etc., etc.

His teams were very creative, just not in the style of the south americans.

David Beckham, Giggs, Ronaldo, Scholes, Cantona, Kanchelskis were all creative players who thrived under him. Again you judge managers on 2 criterias:

  1. Their trophy count

  2. How innovative they were and whether they changed the game for the better.

In the first category Fergie and Paisley sit alone at the top.

Mourinho is good but Pep and Guardiola have similar records and they don’t act like twats and bring the game into dispute. Pep is also a good deal younger than Jose.

In the second category we have people like cryuff, rinus michel, sachhi etc who didn’t win as much as their counterparts but deserve to be mentioned in the same breath.

There are further exceptions like Bill Shankly and Busby because while they did not innovate much or win much they were the one’s who built the foundation of their respective clubs for the trophies that would flow later on.

Jose Mourinho is good, But he Pep and Ancelotti are similar, the other 2 come without the baggage. In a tier below we have Klopp and BR who are doing phenomenal things and who i have no doubt given time will sit at the big table.

you can’t compete when your nutrition, training and mentality about the sport is a good 40 years behind. Asian football (China/India) is still a good 15-20 years from respectable world cup sides. The competition in their domestic leagues is too low and without variation in play or style. As a culture they focus on different aspects - kids are told to get an education and forget sports. No one there sees sports as a way out of the ghetto like in Europe and USA. That’s changing with the NBA’s exposure in China but they’re still a long way away. Physically they will be able to compete with the right coaching and nutrition, but give it another generation.

And someone said Japan isn’t the sum of it’s parts. I disagree. Anyone who’s seen their team play knows they are greater than the sum of it’s parts. All that technical tilt and kaizen shit is one thing they got going for them. They can overcome their physical disadvantage with precision. China has neither, yet. Korea has the physicality and the aggressiveness, they just need to read the game better. These teams will be competitive given the right coaching at grassroots. Asian football is still in the stoneage. It won’t be there forever.

None of these are creative players.

Also, your obsession with BR is ridiculous. You keep bringing him into this discussion and he does not belong.

None of these players are creative? What are you smoking?

Scholes is one of the best passers England and the Barclays Premier League have seen. Beckham one of the best dead ball and crossing specialists in recent years (although you could argue Madrid snapped him up for shirt sales). Giggs has been creating on the wing for Manchester United for the past 2 decades…I could go on and on.

Just because none of these names ends in “inho” doesn’t mean theyre not creative.

Good lord, wtf are you saying?

Ultimately a creative player has to create chances.

Beckham- best crosser of the ball we have and will ever see

giggs- direct dribbling

scholes- one touch passing and control. Zidane apparently asked beckham how it was to play with scholes the first day they met in Real.

If you think these players aren’t creative then you barely know the game mate.

And yes i love brendan because the things he’s doing haven’t been seen in a long long time. It isn’t sterile football- it’s direct go for the jugular football and his frontline cost a total of

Suarez- 24 million, Sturridge- 12 mill, Raheem -500 k and Coutinho - 8 million. Total- Roughly 45 million.

Chelsea’s frontline? Torres alone-50 million, Hazard- 32 million, Oscar-25 million, Schurrle who comes of the bench-18 million.

See the difference? BR is 5 points clear of him with a squad at half the price, gives us the best football we’ve seen in ages and acts like a manager should act.

Brendan Rodgers has done an admiral job, but by previous years standards the big teams this year have been pretty weak.

Chelsea, Manchester United and City have all introduced new managers, Arsenal were plagued with injuries for several months after going top (Ozil, Ramsey etc.) and Tottenham lost Gareth Bale who was the best player in the Premier league last season (he scored the winning goal in eight games last season and 26 in total in all competitions).

Previously poor attacking teams with stronger defences have become weaker at the back this season and conceded more goals (West Brom, Newcastle, Fulham, Sunderland).

BR and Liverpool won’t ever have as good a chance to win the Premier League as they do this season - Chelsea, Manchester United, Manchester City will all spend big in the summer. Tottenham will probably finally get their coach sorted out and the players who they spent the Bale money on last season will have had at year a the club and improve dramatically next season (standard for foreign players to do so in their second season in the Premier League). Liverpool will also have to compete in Europe unlike this year.

If Liverpool make the top 4 next season that will be a good acheivement, but Rodgers has been incredibly lucky with circumstances at other clubs this season and taken advantage of this (quite rightly so mind you!). Next season we’ll see if he can truely become a “great” manager. Right now I just see a lucky guy with a good crop of players and other big teams going through transition.

Bebe springs to mind here… wouldn’t really say he got the best out of EVERY player, he also did get it wrong at times indecision

Scholes was basically a retainer who specialized in keeping possession, he never excelled in developing plays or picking apart defenses in the final third.

Beckham had zero creative abilities, he just lacked the technical skills.

Giggs transitioned to a more creative role with age, but his best play was when he was a winger, no way was he an elite player in a creative role. Same goes for Kanchelskis and Cantona.

Ronaldo is a direct player who specializes in goal scoring, not a creative player.

I don’t think you guys have a clue what creative means in a footballing context.

Now had you guys said Roy Keane was a creative player, you would have had an argument, but unsurprisingly you didn’t.

I’ll name some creative players from a range of roles, since you are struggling with the concept:

Cesc Fabregas

Roberto Baggio

Andres Iniesta

Andrea Pirlo

Rivaldo

Francesco Totti

Shinji Kagawa

David Silva

Xavi

Juan Roman Riquelme

You have to be smoking if you think Giggs, Scholes, Beckham, and Ronaldo, while being great players (except for Beckham) belong with the players above in terms of creativity.

That being said, I think Scholes could have been an excellent creative player, but I do not believe he really reached his potential under Fergie. Would have done England a lot more good, but they were more obsessed with Gerrard and Lampard.

Isildurr, btw, what is BR doing that Rafa Benitez didn’t do earlier in his career?