In looking at candidates/students at the top 10 bschools, it occurred to me that a lot of weight is placed on extracurriculars. This makes sense to a degree, but really I think too much weight is placed on perceived “leadership” qualities and “diversity” of experience. For instance: Someone starts a non-profit and builds houses in Cameroon for 3 years after college, then scores a 750 on the GMAT’s and gets into Harvard. While I admire this and think it is a worthy endeavor, what can this person really tell me that is going to add value if my goal would be to enter investment banking. If I want diversity of experience, I can go down to the local bookstore, the nearest martial arts dojo, or join a local charity. But if I’m coughing up $500k+ in opportunity costs I hope I’m paying for some face time with people who have done what I want to be doing (i.e. bankers, asset managers, etc). I’m beginning to think that the whole MBA process is a big joke. As someone who works with and knows many CFA charterholders and MBAs (many with both designations), I really think that the CFA is a more impressive credential, as I consistently come away unimpressed with the quality of newly minted MBAs from top 20 programs. MBA admissions is about “gaming” the system, while the CFA cannot be faked - you have to earn it. Despite thinking this way, I’ll definitely get the MBA as well as the CFA…if only because it is the requisite rubber stamp for what I want to do, although I doubt I’ll learn much from the process. Thoughts on this?
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Sure, there will always be duds that make it into B-School by “gaming” the system. So what? Look at the majority. They include top people from all across wall street and corporate america. You say you have run up against new MBA’s? From where? There is no need to be in awe of them, but you are kidding yourself if you think some of the MBA’s at Blackstone, Goldman, KKR, Och Ziff, Greenhill etc are not top peformers… No offense to the CFA (I am choosing the CFA over MBA) but look at some of the posts on this board. Talk about clueless and lack of quality!! An Ivy MBA will always have more prestige and clout than holding the CFA…
I could have sworn that the vast majority of MBA candidates end up in professional capacities other than Wall Street finance. Maybe I heard wrong.
I’m in an MBA program at one of the better schools and I have a CFA charter. I understand your point but I think you do exaggerate. Work exp and then test scores, academic record, and the interview are by far the driving factors. Extracurriculars are important because they show 1) you’re active and good at taking the initiative (which is key since everything at the school is run by the students) and 2) that you’re an interesting person (this isn’t a PhD program, managers need to be persuasive). I’d say only about 10% of the kids here come from alt backgrounds. The vast vast majority were consultants, engineers, finance guys, and IT guys. Sure there’s some duds but overall they are really quite smart and savvy. One guy in my study group has patents. Patents! While I’m playing my PS2 he’s getting patents. I know the application process can be frustrating, especially the essay portion. However, the act of writing the essays is really valuable down the road, whether you’re applying for jobs, scholarships, study abroad stuff, or just trying to figure out what to do with your life. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve referred to my app essays since I got here.
What’s with the “CFA is so great and difficult” threads lately? The MBA process is not a joke. It is a crapshoot in a sense, but it’s not a joke. There will always be people that slip by as I’m sure there are CFA charter holders that slip by. As far as your goal of investment banking and getting value out of the person who started a non-profit…your view is selfish. Within your class, there might be someone who wants to start a non-profit in the future and so will get value out of the Cameroon person. Not everyone in MBA wants to go into I banking. The thing with the CFA is that as the population increases… the number of CFAs will also increase according to some formula… especially now that the exam will be given in Inida. But as the population increases… the number of top MBAs coming out each year will remain almost constant and may even decrease as some schools would want to decrease the class size (as many have already done). Some employers would take a CFA over a top MBA … but for the most part, most employers would take a top MBA over a CFA(I’m talking about fresh hires… not ingrown talent). (of course, this statement was pulled out of my a$$. But if someone can prove something contrary, please do so)
homie Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > As far as your goal of investment banking and > getting value out of the person who started a > non-profit…your view is selfish. Within your > class, there might be someone who wants to start a > non-profit in the future and so will get value out > of the Cameroon person. Not everyone in MBA wants > to go into I banking. Head —> Nail. Like others hvae mentioned, a very large percentage of the classes at top b-schools head outside of wall street. Perhaps everyone else should be bothered by the finance people at school, because how will that help their goal of setting up a non-profit, or consulting for M/B/B, working in marketing at a top multinational, etc…
To clarify…I have no desire to go into investment banking. If you look at the top 10 schools and where the grads go according to literature of the schools themselves, the majority go into financial services and consulting…they do not go into non-profits. My point is that I think you can learn more about finance from people who have actually worked in it as opposed to people who have some alternative background. Also, I’ll add that the application process is hard, but school itself is not a ball-buster. Virtually everyone at bschool gets B’s or above, and the pressure there is derived from kissing ass (aka networking) as opposed to really encountering anything intensely challenging in the classroom.
DirtyZ Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > My point is that I think you can learn more about > finance from people who have actually worked in it > as opposed to people who have some alternative > background. If a person wants to learn more about finance from people with finance backgrounds, it would make sense for them to be looking at masters in finance not an MBA.
Why not take 1 step further and rant about the fact that these business schools are accepting people that do not want to go into I banking or consulting? On another note… to say that you will only learn what you need from I bankers is pretty narrow minded. After learning from 50 I bankers… would 1 more I banker really add value… or would learning from someone who started his own company give more value? I can’t comment on the difficulty of B school…(never gone through it) … but it seems like one of those things that requires the person to put it in to get something out of it… But I have heard from students and alumni that getting in is the hardest part.
I think it is a fair comment that many of us, myself including, do not have the financial resources to take a few years off and do the kind of “good” work that we’d all like to do if we had daddy’s credit card. That being said, I have confidence in the admissions process to reward those who are worthy to enter their program
“Someone starts a non-profit and builds houses in Cameroon for 3 years after college, then scores a 750 on the GMAT’s and gets into Harvard.” Starting and running an organization is a pretty important skill in business. This guy did it for three years, AND made an organization that survived even though it’s not supposed to be profitable (remember that “not for profit” is also “not for loss”). Oh, and he has a 99th percentile GMAT score. Seems to me that this guy has demonstrated some pretty impressive skills that signal he/she is likely to be successful in business. What part of this is “gaming the system”?
" I think it is a fair comment that many of us, myself including, do not have the financial resources to take a few years off and do the kind of “good” work that we’d all like to do if we had daddy’s credit card. " Again your making a big generalization there, how do you know the person is backed by daddy? Even if they are or not, they still have given up 3 years of their life, to pursue their passion. Alot of people would also say its a fair comment to make, that pursuing a career in finance and writing the CFA (right of school) in your example, could be seen as greed. As you could have went off for a year or two, “and you would still be way ahead of others in terms of gettnig a charter by age”. Or you could have went and studied a masters and added something to the academic community. You have made your choices for a reason, the person in Cameroon made their choices for a reason, no need to judge.
adehbone Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > " I think it is a fair comment that many of us, > myself including, do not have the financial > resources to take a few years off and do the kind > of “good” work that we’d all like to do if we had > daddy’s credit card. " > > Again your making a big generalization there, how > do you know the person is backed by daddy? Even if > they are or not, they still have given up 3 years > of their life, to pursue their passion. > > Alot of people would also say its a fair comment > to make, that pursuing a career in finance and > writing the CFA (right of school) in your example, > could be seen as greed. As you could have went off > for a year or two, “and you would still be way > ahead of others in terms of gettnig a charter by > age”. Or you could have went and studied a masters > and added something to the academic community. > > You have made your choices for a reason, the > person in Cameroon made their choices for a > reason, no need to judge. All I am saying is that many, have financial liabilities upon graduation. Particularly those of in the middle class whose couldn’t qualify for gov’t assistance/student loans, but yet had parents who couldn’t afford to pay for all of our educational costs. Greed is a factor sure, I admit that.
DirtyZ Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > In looking at candidates/students at the top 10 > bschools, it occurred to me that a lot of weight > is placed on extracurriculars. This makes sense > to a degree, but really I think too much weight is > placed on perceived “leadership” qualities and > “diversity” of experience. For instance: Someone > starts a non-profit and builds houses in Cameroon > for 3 years after college, then scores a 750 on > the GMAT’s and gets into Harvard. While I admire > this and think it is a worthy endeavor, what can > this person really tell me that is going to add > value if my goal would be to enter investment > banking. If I want diversity of experience, I can > go down to the local bookstore, the nearest > martial arts dojo, or join a local charity. But > if I’m coughing up $500k+ in opportunity costs I > hope I’m paying for some face time with people who > have done what I want to be doing (i.e. bankers, > asset managers, etc). > I’m beginning to think that the whole MBA process > is a big joke. As someone who works with and > knows many CFA charterholders and MBAs (many with > both designations), I really think that the CFA is > a more impressive credential, as I consistently > come away unimpressed with the quality of newly > minted MBAs from top 20 programs. MBA admissions > is about “gaming” the system, while the CFA cannot > be faked - you have to earn it. Despite thinking > this way, I’ll definitely get the MBA as well as > the CFA…if only because it is the requisite > rubber stamp for what I want to do, although I > doubt I’ll learn much from the process. Thoughts > on this? Good post. I just got into a couple of m7 programs in round 1 and I have been thinking about the reason why that might be. I think you touch on a key common assumption here, which is that the school exists to provide a service to the students. On the face of it, this is obviously true in that you do receive a degree if you complete the program. But really, the schools are a business, and they want a diversity of students because that is what benefits them. Harvard wants the best people it can get in every industry because those people are most likely to rise to the top, thereby elevating the school’s brand and worldwide presence as well as (likely) contributing more to the school’s endowment. It is much more beneficial to Harvard, etc. to educate the best people working in finance, consulting, nonprofit, and international companies (hence the focus on international applicants) than it is to turn out a huge group of people who intend to work in one particular industry. The fact that so many people “decide” to work in finance after being admitted shows that there probably is some “gaming” going on by applicants (not to mention financial pressure), but the schools can’t control this – they can only do the best they can to get the best and most diverse class possible. On the face it, having such a broad network could be appealing as an alum, but I think this is a side effect. Always try to look at the motivations of an individual or group that goes into the decision making process. Private schools exist to serve their own initiatives and their customers (the companies doing the hiring). Students are the product, not the end user (although this does not deny the benefits of having a top MBA). In terms of value added by the diverse student body, I think this is basically a moot point. At most schools, everyone goes through the same first year curriculum, plus or minus a few courses, and then begins to specialize in the second year. If you want to study finance, your second year will be spent in classes full of ex-bankers or aspiring bankers (and hedge fund guys, PE guys, etc.), which means that you have effectively self-selected into the group you want to be in. Anyway, feel free to disagree or call me a cynic. I used to think the schools were there to serve me, the applicant, but my view changed after I was admitted and met a number of people who fit your description.
I totally agree with you, and am in a similar boat. My point is that you can not say “having money or weath”, only allows you to add value. Look at all the academics on here or previous military that come and say they want to pursue finance, “but are they too old in their 30s?”. While others will be in private equity or trading, making well into the mid 6 digits.
speaking of extracurric’s, how much do your undergrad ones come into play in an MBA app? I was heavily involved in several clubs with leadership positions in undergrad as well as volunteering. Post graduation however for the last couple years, work, CFA studies, and trying to make sure I hit the gym a few nights a week take up most of my time. --Little organization/volunteer work after undergrad.
CFAdetroit Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > speaking of extracurric’s, how much do your > undergrad ones come into play in an MBA app? I was > heavily involved in several clubs with leadership > positions in undergrad as well as volunteering. > Post graduation however for the last couple years, > work, CFA studies, and trying to make sure I hit > the gym a few nights a week take up most of my > time. --Little organization/volunteer work after > undergrad. Same situation here. I wish b-schools valued staying in shape and taking the CFA examinations as much as extra-curriculars post-undergrad.
Real men (or women) don’t need the MBA.
billwest Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Real men (or women) don’t need the MBA. Who said anything about needing it? Maybe I just want to get it so the girls (and some guys) I know that all have their masters in social work or masters in elementary education or my favorite, masters in communications, will stop throwing out that fact at me whenever they get a chance, trying not so subtley to act like it makes them superior. As much as I can agree that an MBA probably isn’t all that tough compared to some other masters degrees, it does at least provide SOME utility in at least getting you into higher paying finance jobs. I just can’t see the ROI being positive on some of the above mentioned masters programs, especially when opportunity costs are taken into place.